Did a pickup with some pretty beat on fish, and a turtle. Not sure who the aggressor was, I was told it got a burial at sea. Some ids, s’il vous plaît.







Also, whatever the fish o' terror was did this to a big red ear slider shell. It's been under a heat lamp basking for the last bunch of hours, so it's not as red or squishy as it was when she got here.

Metriaclima sp., Synodontis euptera, and S. decorus, for quick guesses.

WYite

Some beat up fish you have there. I agree with Wyite...the second pic is a Synodontis euptera. Not sure about the others though.

Yep, with the pics, looks like wyomingite is right on with the ID's. They are pretty beat up...good luck...keep us updated on them.

Something pretty mean must have been in there. Surprised it only attacked the laterial line of the fish and did that to a turtle shell.

Mostlycichlids wrote:

Yep, with the pics, looks like wyomingite is right on with the ID's. They are pretty beat up...good luck...keep us updated on them.

Saint and I spent quite a bit a time discussin' this in chat last night. Kind of a conundrum. I've never seen a cichlid that attacked in that manner, the damage isn't characteristic of any African or large CA/SA cichlids I've ever seen. I'd expect the damage to be distributed more evenly across the body or concentrated near the head and the marks to be more circular. The orientation of damage along the lateral line of the cats is perplexing, I'd expect the S. euptera to have lost the eye with the damage on the cheek, and the attack would have had to be darn forceful to sever the pectoral spine on the S. decorus. Syno pectoral spines are strong. I'm havin' a hard time picturin' even a large dovii, red terror, umbee or jag doin' that kinda damage to the shell of a 10" slider. All in all the patterns of the damage doesn't make sense for an attack by an aggressive cichlid, but that was the story. Any thoughts?

Senegal160 wrote:

Something pretty mean must have been in there. Surprised it only attacked the laterial line of the fish and did that to a turtle shell.

Astute observation on the lateral line damage, Senegal, one of the first things I noticed. You're correct, it is surprising.

WYite

I was thinking the same thing Wyite and that maybe the damage could have been due to neglect and poor conditions rather than a fish with that kind of accuracy in biting up a fish in a straight line. Almost looks like HITH or HLLE on the Syno.

I wonder what was the thing "buried at sea". I feel bad for those fish. I hope we figure it out before one of us makes the mistake of getting something or doing something like that.

I wish I knew. The guy who got 'em to me, got them from someone else. He doesn't keep fish, so when he was told the damage on the cats was from a big african and that african was disposed of, he believed 'em.

He told me he had seen the tank before, and that the missing fish was something reddish orange and very streamlined looking.

The lateral line scarring is what had us here perplexed too. It's almost like they got crammed though something too small for them, but it still doesn't explain what happened to the decorus fins, or the slider.

Speaking of the slider, since she finally came out of her shell for me nearly all the way, is that her neck is ripped up pretty good on the top behind the head. There's a good flap of skin that I'm going to have to get in there and do something about, and probably get bit in the process.

So far so good though. Everyone here is in quarantine. I have a seperate 10 set up for the decorus in case there's any problems. You can't tell so well from the pics but his operculum are practically stumps.

saint_felony wrote:

...the missing fish was something reddish orange and very streamlined looking...

Crenicichla, maybe then? Still doesn't fit the "attack" pattern. Ramphochromis, Champsochromis or one of the other large, open-water African predatory cichlids fits the description as well, though I don't recall any of them bein' predominantly orange or red. Still can't see any of them bein' that exacting in their attacks, either, nor bein' able to damage the slider's shell.

WYite

Wow it would have to be one strong fish. The syns, should have been eaten, if it did that to the turtle i would think. Could it have been a red striped snake head?Although illegal i know of 2 in michigan. Man are they mean!

No fish I can think of fits the attack pattern, nor any other animal I can think of for that matter. There should be chunks missing and random chunks at that or they should have been dead.

I'm dubious of any disease too, since I've never seen one that does lines like that. Wyite, I'm not sure if I mentioned it in chat last night or not, but that scarring goes down both sides, not just the one.

Detroit, for a short while I kept a Snakehead with a Slider and it never did anything like that. I suppose a snakehead could do that to a slider shell, but then again if that's what was in there, everything else should have been dead.

I'm going to try and see if I can talk to who had them originally, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to, or if it will get me anywhere. They're here. They're doing well. The cats will be here forever I'm sure, but at least they'll be fine here. The euptera is already getting used to me as far as feeding goes.

You didn't mention it, but doesn't change my opinion any. In fact, only strengthens it.

WYite

Looks more like damage from small hiding spots. Or from a bigger cats.

I did some more research on HLLE and would almost guarantee that's what the Syno has. I've seen pics that look similar to what is on the Syno and here's a description.

Quote :

The symptoms are well described by the name. First, the fish will develop small, grey, pin-hole abrasions around the eyes and head. As the disease progresses, it spreads down the lateral line. These lesions will grow and if not treated, can lead to secondary infections and may eventually kill the fish.

Well, son of a bitch.

I have never come across HLLE before. Looks like it's time to do some research. Wheee fun.

So, let's see if we figured this out then. Both cats have HLLE. Both have been picked on by something, since the decorus has been through hell and back and euptera barbels are all swollen and red.

So, since both me and Wyite missed the HLLE thing, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the folks that had them had no clue that's what it was and blamed it all on one agressive fish.

One aggressive fish could be the cause of the shell damage and the decours fins. Still I would have liked to know what it was.

Could be an aggressive fish with the turtle. I'm no turtle expert but I'm guessing that poor nutrition and poor water quality (which are thought to be causes of HLLE) could also cause the shell problems seen on the turtle.

saint_felony wrote:

So, since both me and Wyite missed the HLLE thing, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the folks that had them had no clue that's what it was and blamed it all on one agressive fish.

Focused on what kind of critter coulda caused the damage, yup. And thinkin' of HLLE/HITH as an almost exclusively cichlid disease (among freshwater fish). So I started doin' some lookin', and since I know I don't have any examples of HLLE in catfish in any of my books or articles, I do a web search and find one example of a cat with HLLE, in a post at Planet Catfish, and it's a S. euptera. Nice catch dawg.

saint_felony wrote:

One aggressive fish could be the cause of the shell damage and the decours fins. Still I would have liked to know what it was.

dirtydawg10 wrote:

Could be an aggressive fish with the turtle. I'm no turtle expert but I'm guessing that poor nutrition and poor water quality (which are thought to be causes of HLLE) could also cause the shell problems seen on the turtle.

Don't know 'bout the turtle. And the caudal fin on the decorus could be the result of a cichlid pickin' at it. But had an epiphane today at Petco when I was pickin' up aragonite sand.

One of the help netted a 4-line pictus. Big mistake, but after I jumped the manager they may start using plastic cups for cats now, though I doubt it. Anyways, the pectoral got caught in the mesh, and tryin' to get it loose the gal grabbed the pectoral spine stickin' through. She was pullin' it back and forth tryin' to work it out when "snap". This is 'bout when I got to the tank. I got pissed, told her I'd get it and ripped the net, turned the fish loose. The left pectoral spine was broke and the fin was almost useless.

So, the scenario: the decorus is tore up from a bad encounter with a net and it and the euptera are in a tank with a bunch of mbuna. The largest starts pickin' on the cats cuz they're not well, the stress and water conditions cause HLLE in the cats. The orange-red cichlid does what fish do, it picks on the injured and weak fish that are in it's domain. As the cats get worse and the red cichlid gets more aggressive, the owner thinks the red cichlid is responsibe for all the damage, but not before it nips the caudal and busted pectoral fin off of the decorus. Thinkin' the red cichlid is guilty of all the damage, it gets sentenced to death by flushing.

Can't explain the turtle shell, nor the damage to the back of it's neck, 'cuz I've never kept turtles. But the scenario makes sense for the fish. Especially if the other African cichlids are uninjured.

BTW. I have a 5" fish net with a foot and a half handle that I'm lookin' to get rid of. It has a 4" rip on one side, but otherwise is like new. Purchase price was $3.49 new, it can be yours today for half price. PM me if yer interested.

WYite

It seems like all the puzzle pieces are fitting into place now.

The three other Africans all are looking just fine. Quite the epiphany you had there at the Petco Wyite. The sort where the manager hides the next time they see you come in the store. Also, did anyone else cringe some when they got to the 'snap' in said epiphany?

Anyway the Slider was being much more cooperative tonight, and I got to fully check out her neck thanks to the power of chicken. I'm thinking she was either a recent addition, they had more than one, was found or was given to them. The neck marks look to be damage from an overly aggressive male turtle trying to mate.

Still on the fence about the cause of the shell damage. We had one slider that was kept with a big Oscar that had some similar looking marks. If she was a recent addition that could be from anything though.

At this point though I'm just happy it seems we got most everything figured out. I'm going to move out the Africans, see how the two cats feel about having a tank to themselves, and start treating them with the usual HITH treatment that's worked good on Oscars I've seen with it.

Hopefully it will work just fine. I've never seen the HLLE variant of HITH. I definitely want to read up on it more, to see what the difference is between the two, but quick looking tonight there doesn't seem to be much.

Either which way, awesome catch on the creeping crud D thanks. You too Wyite.

Well, looks like this is about wrapped up....and wyite did they really make you buy the net...wow. I have found salt to also aid in helping along with whatever meds you are using.

Wow! She snapped the pectoral fin...some people are just clueless.

Your idea does make sense, Wyite. It WAS probably a bit of HLLE and another fish picking on it combined to cause the damage to these fish.

SF, I believe HITH and HLLE are both the same thing. HLLE is the latter stages of HITH. If HITH is treated or the cause of the HITH is remedied there will not be any lateral line erosion. That's my take on it anyway.

Seems like you're right from what I was reading on it, D. I've just been lucky and never seen it get that bad before now.

My usual treatment for oscars with hith is to

-Crank the heat to 80ish.
-30% water changes every other day
-1 tbs salt to every 5ish gallons of water.

Normally, with Oscars I have to get them off eating feeders too, but I'll have to see if I can pick up some food with extra vitamins in it. Since feeders are crap for nutrition I've found that getting the fish on a good pellet helps too.

If that doesn't help any I guess I can try treating for Hexamita since that's the other potential cause of HITH. Have to look up what takes care of that one though.

I would guess that the clean water and high nutrient diet will be 95% to 100% of the fix for these guys. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.