OK "DragonKeeper" here you go,#1}when you see any of your fish that are sick take that fish out,#2} put it in a hospital-tank {works better in a 10gl.tank} filter running.#3} what you wanna do is get a "PEROXIDE" and not just any,has to be the kind that you would gargle mouth with.#4}put...8 tablespoons in the tank for the first two days once in the morning once at night,after two days 4 tablespoons once in the morning once at night.#5}Repeat 4 tablespoons until you fish is doing well....I saved at list 20+ African Cichlids this way,i dont buy over the counter stuff anymore. Also if you can ad "garlic juice" works faster.....trust me it works 99.9% out of time,sooner you catch the sickness better chance your fish will have.... GOOD LUCK!!!!

When you say "sick" what are we talking about here? Fungus? Bacterial? Parasitic? Also how did you come about your dosing strategy? I am curious because I have never heard this technique used before, and like you don't like to use OTC drugs and medications for my fish.

Keeper

DragonKeeper wrote:

When you say "sick" what are we talking about here? Fungus? Bacterial? Parasitic? Also how did you come about your dosing strategy? I am curious because I have never heard this technique used before, and like you don't like to use OTC drugs and medications for my fish.

Keeper

sorry guys,,,,for any sickness and i mean any.........!

Hmmm...never heard peroxide suggested before. How'd you learn about it? Luckily I don't have to treat sick fish very often.

Well talking about parasites it might have an effect on ich or external parasites (I have my doubts), but I don't see any reason why hydrogen peroxide would have any effect on an internal parasite.

I know the peroxide is a mild antifungal and antibacterial agent but I don't see it working on internal problems. I guess I could see it as an infection preventative for some thing like open sores or wounds, but I would be cautious because of a filter crash.

I would also be interested to know the rate of decomposition when subjected to light. Peroxide releases free O2 when it decomposes and nothing else.

Obviously in low doses it doesn't hurt the fish but I'm still curious as to where/who you got your facts and dosing strategy from.

Keeper

I've seen peroxide used in treating extreme fin/tail rot in Koi. The methods though are completely different.

For koi, (or larger goldfish too) they're placed in a shallow pan with water up to one side and a wet rag to cover the head. The peroxide is painted on straight with a q-tip or cotton ball, no dilution. You can tell it's working since you'll end up with blood or blackish scum on the cotton as well as an unpleasant looking foaming on the fish.

The fish needs to be then put in a clean hospital tank, and in my experience still needs to be treated with some other form of medication.

Same for after removing ulcers too, but for that you'd do peroxide and then some sort of waterproof bandage.

I'd be interested to see tests otherwise, but I'm fairly sure that peroxide alone won't take care of any internal parasites, worms, flukes or a number of other problems.

Interesting thread.

I have to agree with saint on the effectiveness on internal parasites. Peroxide is very reactive, and will kill most external parasites and may quench many infections in open wounds, but I'm thinkin' it would react with body tissue before it could be effective on internal parasites. Curious what size tank you were dosing; 8 tablespoons is a lot to be putting in a smaller tank, IMO, even the 3% concentration, over the counter stuff.

WYite

DragonKeeper wrote:

Well talking about parasites it might have an effect on ich or external parasites (I have my doubts), but I don't see any reason why hydrogen peroxide would have any effect on an internal parasite.

I know the peroxide is a mild antifungal and antibacterial agent but I don't see it working on internal problems. I guess I could see it as an infection preventative for some thing like open sores or wounds, but I would be cautious because of a filter crash.

I would also be interested to know the rate of decomposition when subjected to light. Peroxide releases free O2 when it decomposes and nothing else.

Obviously in low doses it doesn't hurt the fish but I'm still curious as to where/who you got your facts and dosing strategy from.

Keeper

ofter 25+ years having fish tanks and i still have about 15 tanks about 500+ cichlids,my friend i have tried to find other/natural ways to cure my fish,with that many years and that many fish i tested different things to cure my fish well i did,peroxide-garlic-ginger-arm&hammer is what i use to cure my fish,i dont care if you believe me or not i am not trying to sell it to you i am trying to help you to save you fish if it ever gets sick.If you ever need me to help you guys how to do it,let me know.....

No one said you were feeding us bs....it is just a good discussion. Your experience and testament is worth a lot, but it lacks any scientific facts. Therefor people are not going to throw their selves at your ideas. I don't know as I have never tried it...I also would never try it mainly due to the fact that there are other meds scientifically proven to work. No doubt you feel comfortable using it and you should keep doing so.

You have also used it on, you say African Cichlids which are very hardy fish....what about scaleless fish or more delicate fish? I would warn anyone reading this to use caution on more delicate, scaleless species. I would also warn the newbie member to not use this method unless he/she knows what they are doing. Another point that needs to addressed is what the peroxide will do to water parameters and what do do if you don't have a QT/Hospital tank?

The Idea again is good but I think this subject needs to be elaborated on quite a bit more and the statements in the OP first post are too broad and need further discussion. I would also like to see some documentation or a log of these findings. I think they would be interesting. What is the time line for healing an open wound using peroxide? How fast will it kill ICH, or how long will it take to cure fin rot apposed to using other meds? I am interested to know things like this. There are many other questions....what have you found CichlidsRool in your experience with using peroxide?

Mostlycichlids wrote:

No one said you were feeding us bs....it is just a good discussion. Your experience and testament is worth a lot, but it lacks any scientific facts. Therefor people are not going to throw their selves at your ideas. I don't know as I have never tried it...I also would never try it mainly due to the fact that there are other meds scientifically proven to work. No doubt you feel comfortable using it and you should keep doing so.

You have also used it on, you say African Cichlids which are very hardy fish....what about scaleless fish or more delicate fish? I would warn anyone reading this to use caution on more delicate, scaleless species. I would also warn the newbie member to not use this method unless he/she knows what they are doing. Another point that needs to addressed is what the peroxide will do to water parameters and what do do if you don't have a QT/Hospital tank?

The Idea again is good but I think this subject needs to be elaborated on quite a bit more and the statements in the OP first post are too broad and need further discussion. I would also like to see some documentation or a log of these findings. I think they would be interesting. What is the time line for healing an open wound using peroxide? How fast will it kill ICH, or how long will it take to cure fin rot apposed to using other meds? I am interested to know things like this. There are many other questions....what have you found CichlidsRool in your experience with using peroxide?

i have African/South/Central Cichlid's, for the last 8 years i have not purchased medication from pet shops,you know why?......3 word "peroxide-garlic-ginger",once a week i mix garlic juice with there food and feed them,then every two weeks i putt the ginger in juicer then mix that with there food and feed that to,,,as far as you wont try it,its all good my friend it works for me an i love it,i saved fish that i tried with store brand that died on me,now with same sickness if see it on-time will not die.In one week my sick fish are well and ready to go back with there friends.OH!! Did i tell you that i use my own 100% natural wood carbon also...i have been selling them at pet shops and thr customers love it.


here is the link...

http://losangeles.kijiji.com/c-Pets-Other-pets-Fish-Tank-100-Wood-Carbon-for-Aquariums-and-Ponds-5-00-W0QQAdIdZ131007103

Nice..on the wood carbon...I am sure a lot of folks could benefit from thew carbon...I personally am old school and just go Biological and mechanical.

Mostlycichlids wrote:

No one said you were feeding us bs....it is just a good discussion. Your experience and testament is worth a lot, but it lacks any scientific facts. Therefor people are not going to throw their selves at your ideas. I don't know as I have never tried it...I also would never try it mainly due to the fact that there are other meds scientifically proven to work. No doubt you feel comfortable using it and you should keep doing so.

The FDA actually has guidelines for the use of hydrogen peroxide in commercial fish farms, for ectoparasites and fungi in both fish and eggs, so I know it is effective on those problems. And it will remain in aqueous solution for a goodly amount of time. I've never heard of it as a treatment for internal parasites, though, and I've been in the hobby about the same length of time as you have, C_R. But it is a very strong oxidizer, and since there are so many organic compounds in the average aquarium, I'm just tryin' to figure out how it's effective on internal parasites, how it remains intact long enough to be effective. That's why I was asking about dosage. Ya say how many tablespoons ya add, but ya don't say what size tank. I'd wanna scale it down for smaller tanks if I were to give it a try.

Mostlycichlids wrote:

You have also used it on, you say African Cichlids which are very hardy fish....what about scaleless fish or more delicate fish? I would warn anyone reading this to use caution on more delicate, scaleless species. I would also warn the newbie member to not use this method unless he/she knows what they are doing. Another point that needs to addressed is what the peroxide will do to water parameters and what do do if you don't have a QT/Hospital tank?

Good point, MC, on the scaleless fish. As for water parameters, H2O2 is slightly acidic itself. It reacts quickly with organic compounds and metals, especially when catalyzed with UV or an enzyme, such as a peroxidase. Ya have to inject it constantly to maintain effectiveness due to its reactivity, and too high of a dosage can be deadly to life. End water parameters after injection/addition depend a lot on the beginning water parameters and what the H2O2 reacts with once its in the water, but generally speaking the effects are minimal.

Mostlycichlids wrote:

The Idea again is good but I think this subject needs to be elaborated on quite a bit more and the statements in the OP first post are too broad and need further discussion. I would also like to see some documentation or a log of these findings. I think they would be interesting. What is the time line for healing an open wound using peroxide? How fast will it kill ICH, or how long will it take to cure fin rot apposed to using other meds? I am interested to know things like this. There are many other questions....what have you found CichlidsRool in your experience with using peroxide.

Yup. Nobody is tryin' to bust yer juevos or say yer full of BS, C_R. You've brought up a very interesting practice, and people are naturally curious about details. Enquiring minds wanna know!

WYite

Wyomingite wrote:

Mostlycichlids wrote:

No one said you were feeding us bs....it is just a good discussion. Your experience and testament is worth a lot, but it lacks any scientific facts. Therefor people are not going to throw their selves at your ideas. I don't know as I have never tried it...I also would never try it mainly due to the fact that there are other meds scientifically proven to work. No doubt you feel comfortable using it and you should keep doing so.

The FDA actually has guidelines for the use of hydrogen peroxide in commercial fish farms, for ectoparasites and fungi in both fish and eggs, so I know it is effective on those problems. And it will remain in aqueous solution for a goodly amount of time. I've never heard of it as a treatment for internal parasites, though, and I've been in the hobby about the same length of time as you have, C_R. But it is a very strong oxidizer, and since there are so many organic compounds in the average aquarium, I'm just tryin' to figure out how it's effective on internal parasites, how it remains intact long enough to be effective. That's why I was asking about dosage. Ya say how many tablespoons ya add, but ya don't say what size tank. I'd wanna scale it down for smaller tanks if I were to give it a try.

Mostlycichlids wrote:

You have also used it on, you say African Cichlids which are very hardy fish....what about scaleless fish or more delicate fish? I would warn anyone reading this to use caution on more delicate, scaleless species. I would also warn the newbie member to not use this method unless he/she knows what they are doing. Another point that needs to addressed is what the peroxide will do to water parameters and what do do if you don't have a QT/Hospital tank?

Good point, MC, on the scaleless fish. As for water parameters, H2O2 is slightly acidic itself. It reacts quickly with organic compounds and metals, especially when catalyzed with UV or an enzyme, such as a peroxidase. Ya have to inject it constantly to maintain effectiveness due to its reactivity, and too high of a dosage can be deadly to life. End water parameters after injection/addition depend a lot on the beginning water parameters and what the H2O2 reacts with once its in the water, but generally speaking the effects are minimal.

Mostlycichlids wrote:

The Idea again is good but I think this subject needs to be elaborated on quite a bit more and the statements in the OP first post are too broad and need further discussion. I would also like to see some documentation or a log of these findings. I think they would be interesting. What is the time line for healing an open wound using peroxide? How fast will it kill ICH, or how long will it take to cure fin rot apposed to using other meds? I am interested to know things like this. There are many other questions....what have you found CichlidsRool in your experience with using peroxide.

Yup. Nobody is tryin' to bust yer juevos or say yer full of BS, C_R. You've brought up a very interesting practice, and people are naturally curious about details. Enquiring minds wanna know!

WYite

i have been treating my fish for the last 8 years,if it did not work i would not of continued this practice,as far as tank size i have 10gl. that i use for hospital tank and filter that i use its for 35gl.i guess I've done it such a long time i know what to do.Trust me guys if it did not work i would never make a fool out of my self.Let me tell you how an why i discover peroxide and garlic together work magic.8 years ago i had a 6-7'' FRONTOSA that i had him when he was just a fry,he got sick white eye would not eat he was going to die,i tried store brand medication but,it did not work. i was desperate only thing came to my mind was peroxide and garlic i did not wanna see him die, so i put the peroxide and garlic juice in my 10gl.tank.1st.day he was just seating on one corner and did not move.Next day he was moving around but not that much, i continued the treatment for 5 days and i could not believe he was getting better,so ever since that day this is how i cure my fish,regardless if its a African or S/C.American...... trust me it works....i lost more fish over the years by using store {pet-shop} brand but not even one fish the way I've doing in the past or present time.

Lots of good points and question brought up here, but the fact remains that there still is no scientific proof that this concoction works. There is a lot of personal experiences listed, which is fine, but I would rather see scientific fact in this case. Hydrogen peroxide is pretty mean stuff. In the wrong doses and applications it can actually cause more harm that good. Peroxide on a deep wound will cause tissue damage and scaring, not something I want on my fish.

I never said I didn't believe you CichlidsRool. I just like to see more scientific fact about stuff like this. I have no doubt that it works for you and you should continue to use it as such, but for me to start using it there are just to many variables and theories not based on scientific facts. That is what I'm trying to clear up here.

Keeper

DragonKeeper wrote:

Lots of good points and question brought up here, but the fact remains that there still is no scientific proof that this concoction works. There is a lot of personal experiences listed, which is fine, but I would rather see scientific fact in this case. Hydrogen peroxide is pretty mean stuff. In the wrong doses and applications it can actually cause more harm that good. Peroxide on a deep wound will cause tissue damage and scaring, not something I want on my fish.

I never said I didn't believe you CichlidsRool. I just like to see more scientific fact about stuff like this. I have no doubt that it works for you and you should continue to use it as such, but for me to start using it there are just to many variables and theories not based on scientific facts. That is what I'm trying to clear up here.

Keeper

sometimes you need to be the scientist,if i wait it for a scientific facts my friend,i would lost so-many of my cichlids.I am sure 100 years ago when "Aspirin" was recovered,buys like you had a lots of headache's just because they were not sure if it worked or not... i tell you what next time when one of your fish gets sick"""i hope not""" if it dose,try it........try it on a goldfish if you like....

I would be skeptical to. I say keep useing it tom. Others may or may not follow. I to am one of the ones who would like proven fact before trying it,but to each there own. I think if we all pitch in maybe we can find some more out about this. Heck all it can do is benefit us all if we look into it future as a group.

That is why we are all here detroit!

I know MC! I said it like that because it seemed like it was starting to turn into alittle bit of of bickering contest is all!

detroitfish wrote:

I know MC! I said it like that because it seemed like it was starting to turn into a little bit of of bickering contest is all!

Well, It is one of the better discussions we have had here...A good arguement/bicker is good as long as it stays clean....bicker on...lmao!

Mostlycichlids wrote:

detroitfish wrote:

I know MC! I said it like that because it seemed like it was starting to turn into a little bit of of bickering contest is all!

Well, It is one of the better discussions we have had here...A good arguement/bicker is good as long as it stays clean....bicker on...lmao!

lol!!! no arguments please all i am tying to do is help you guys not loos your babies.I love my cichlid's i hate it when i see one of my fish die...mater of fact one of my FULU males is not doing well,not eating and getting skinny everyday,today is the day to start the treatment.i will take pictures step by step and we will see the results,what a timing i get to show you guys....SWEET!!! will not sweet that my male FULU got sick.....

Mostlycichlids wrote:

detroitfish wrote:

I know MC! I said it like that because it seemed like it was starting to turn into a little bit of of bickering contest is all!

Well, It is one of the better discussions we have had here...A good arguement/bicker is good as long as it stays clean....bicker on...lmao!

ok here is pictures of my sick FULU, Trent knows fulu's better than me.i was going to take picture of the peroxide but i am out,dont worry i am going to buy one and come back......sorry for the bad pic's...

ok just came back from the store,here is the picture of the peroxide....




STEP 1...{{{PEROXIDE}}}






STEP {{{2}}} GARLIC..



STEP {{{3}}} SLICE THE GARLIC.



I will do the rest of the steps shortly, i need to catch my fulu...

STEP{{{4}}} I like to use fry holder.



STEP{{{5}}}put the fry holder in the 10gl.tank.



STEP{{{6}}} GOT THE FULU OUT.


STEP{{{7}}}GET READY TO PUT THE GARLIC IN WITH THE FULU.

STEP{{{8}}}PUT THE GARLIC IN WITH FULU..

STEP{{{9}}}PUT 5 TABLESPOONS OF PEROXIDE IN THE FRY HOLDER.REPEAT THIS FOR TWO DAYS.AFTER TWO DAYS,USE 3 TABLESPOONS AS LONG AS YOU THINK IS READY,USUALLY AFTER 5 DAYS THEY ARE DOING WELL.

I will do this twice a day once in the morning once at night..... dont feed them for the 1st and second day.if you do dont feed them to much.Also you need to change the garlic every two days...

As far as garlic goes, this is what I found from looking online and talking with the guys at the fish farm.

Back in the early 90s, Jack Wattley was getting in a large number of WC Discus. Most of them were infected with the Capillaria species of roundworms/nematoads. It seems like the fish meds that were available then were killing the discus instead of clearing out the worms. Through random experimentation he found that fresh garlic mashed into the food would help significantly reduce the worm infestation. I can't find if he's quoted as saying it completely cleaned them out or just did a good job reducing them to the point where he could use lower dosages of regular meds.

This was from a TFH article in '99. I can't find any hard testing that 's been done to prove the efficacy of garlic. But it seems to be a popular one to try.

Since Wyite mentioned H2O2 has been approved for use by commercial fish farms I started poking around some. "Introduction to Fish Health Management" (US Fish & Wildlife Service, 2nd ed., 1995)

Hydrogen peroxide is currently considered effective against the following pathogens: Ectoparasites of the genera Ambiphrya, Chilodonella, Dactylogyrus, Epistylis, Gyrodactylus, Ichthyobodo, Ichthyophthirius, Trichodina, Trichophrya, Argulus, Salmincola, Lernaea, and Ergasilus in freshwater fish species; and of the genera Neobenedenia, Amyloodinium, Cryptocaryon, and Uronema in marine fish.

The 1995 book recommends the use of hydrogen peroxide "at 250-500 ppm (100% active ingredient) for 15 minutes as an effective fungicide for incubating eggs and 250-500 ppm (30-60 minutes) for treating fish with external parasites" (page 108).

There's also a new INAD study (started in 2007 ending in 2012) recommending lower dosages for smaller fish. African Cichlids were used in part of the study but no mention as to what sort. (Pet store "assorted african cichlid" tub anyone? )

Anyway dosage is from 25mg/l up to 200mg/l. With the recommendation for the "average" African Cichlid being run at 25mg/l

Treatment regimen:
25 to 100mg/L
Immersion bath is 60 min; 3 consecutive or alternate days

100 to 150mg/L
Immersion bath is 30 min; 3 consecutive or alternate days

150mg/l to 200mg/l
Immersion bath is 30 min; 3 alternate days.

I can't tell from the pictures CR posted what percentage H2O2 are those bottles, I have one here that's 12% but I'm not sure if I ordered them from the vet supply or if that's an available OTC percentage. H2O2 I think is typically sold in pharmacies as a 2% solution.

Assuming the density of a 2% solution of H2O2 is 1 g/ml, then one ml would contain 20 mg of H2O2. Using 5 tablespoons (2.5oz) per 10 gallons would be about 280 mg/l H2O2. Potentially higher if the hospital tank has any substrate or hiding spots (I keep a single pot in the one hospital tank here) taking up space.

Assuming my math is right, (and that's questionable since I'm going on near 36 hours without sleep) that dosage for that long a time seems extremely high for an extremely far too long period of time. I'm surprised you're not killing them from overdose. Makes me wonder if there's something in the garlic that's absorbing/neutralizing some of the peroxide.

I didn't even factor in that you're doing this twice a day. Are you doing any water changes in between? If anything this proves that cichlids are some hardy fish for sure.