I completely disagree with fish being removed from trade. Every single one of the Pacu here all came from fairly responsible fish keepers who were *completely* misinformed about their final size. I'm not sure where the original misinformation came from, but Pacu (and a number of the other fish SBL listed too for that matter) have a problem having a large amount of bad info out there about them.

There are a number of different fish that are called Pacu in South America. Black pacu, are Colossoma macropomum, red bellied pacu are Colossoma brachypomum. I finally did some research on the one here that has yellow on the bottom instead of red and it turns out that one is Piaractus mesopotamicus the Parana river pacu.

Could it be that the original WC Colossoma brachypomum only did get out to a foot? At least 8 species of fish are called pacu in South America. Amphilophus is a complete mess thanks to breeding across the different species, so why couldn't a fish that's primarily used for food have the same problem?

At any rate, whatever the cause of the size problems, the fact remains that a very large chain fish/pet store gave out bad information for quite some time. A lot of information available online is based on that same information. Never mind that with the potential of crossing the species some of them may not grow as large as others. It would at least explain the size discrepancy with my bunch.

Boy that was a lot longer than I meant it to be. Anywho.

Snails: If you really don't like them, snails in a 20 or smaller tank can be treated by hand. squish squish squish. Maybe you could put a leaf of romaine lettuce in there and get a handful that way, but I doubt it will get them all. I would not use any chemicals. That being said, I don't mind the little snails. They're in all the tanks that don't have things that eat them in it.

Ich: I'd have them wait like a week after medication before introducing new fish. If they didn't catch it in time and it killed off all their fish, a water change or two, and maybe only wait like 2 or 3 days? Knock on wood, it's been a pretty long time since I've lost a fish to ich.

Swimbladder: I've only ever seen swimbladder in fancy goldies and parrot fish. No one I know seems to be able to agree on just what causes it. Personally I think the most common cause of swimbladder is impaction. What has sometimes worked, has been to isolate the fish and not feed it for a few days, (2 or 4 depending on the size of the fish) and then follow it up by feeding the fish peas.

Guppy/Platty thing: That's most likely dropsy. Usually a bacterial infection from cruddy water. Gourami, guppies, bettas and goldies are the most prone to if I'm remembering correctly. In my experiences with it when they hit the pine cone looking bloated stage, they're screwed.

Yeah, we squish snails at work too. It's become a game. Sometimes I'll get customers who actually want them and I'll net like 20 for them. Otherwise...we use goldfish. Downside is the goldfish start to get big enough to eat the fish! But a lot of customers -HATE- the snails. Absolutely hate. They wish evil things on us because they bought just one small plant from us and ended up with a tank overflowing in snails.

I have not heard of impaction causing it, though I think that makes sense.

Would dropsy only cause the problems in females though, or were they more vulnerable because they were pregnant? How could this customer treat it?

How many small community fish are safe to add at one time in a 75 gallon tank? 125 gallon?

Interesting, I have a tank of fancy goldies, that I pull out if there are ever any in with the feeder comets. They could care less about the snails in there with them.

Clown loaches are pretty awesome for snail removal.

So are puffers too, but they're good at removing everything in the tank with them a chunk at a time.

Snails = puffer snacks. Nom nom nom. Problem is, once the snails are gone, ya have a puffer that takes neat little semi-circles outta the fins of tankmates, and may decimate any live plants ya have.

Try puttin' a slice of zucchini on the tank floor before ya turn out the lights, then go back in a coupla hours. Remove the zucchini and the snails that have congregated on it. A few nights of this can really put a dent in a snail population. It's also a good way to collect snails for use as puffer snacks, non nom nom. If ya have enough snails, ya may not even hafta wait 'til lights off for it to work, except a lot of small ones will come outta hiding with the lights out.

Of course, ya could always squish 'em.

Guppy/platy thing: Dropsy? Hafta disagree, saint. Never seen a fish with dropsy suddenly go thin overnight. I'd wager a guess that they weren't so bloated the scales were stickin' out either, another common symptom. And the fact it's only females also rules out dropsy. It's stress due to birthing, from one of two factors or both. First, livebearer females impregnated at too early an age can die after birthing due to stress, simply because they aren't mature enough and don't have the strength and stamina to survive. Second, if they are being left in the tank with the males, the males harass them right up until they birth and start harassing them immediately after, wanting to mate again. I've even seen a male platy tryin' to mate while the female was giving birth. This can cause enough stress to kill the female, because she was in poor condition due to lack of rest and poor nutrition to begin with, she has just been through the stress of giving birth, and she hasn't had any recovery time. And it can kill quickly.

You don't have enough information on the set up your customer has to really diagnose the cause. Age is hard to figure with fish, 'cuz generally speaking there is no way to know how old a fish was when ya got it, especially with small fish that mature rapidly and reach adult age in a relatively short period of time, so determining if the female was mated too early is out of the question. I'd guess this to be the least likely of the two, especially if it keeps happening over and over. Once in a while maybe, but not again and again. Next time ask the customer what the ratio of males:females is (should be 1:3 or 4) and if he is isolating the female for a coupla days prior to birthing, when she is ready to birth and for a coupla days after until she has time to regain strength to fend off amorous males, who will keep her from eating or resting. If the tank is heavily stocked and there are no males, it could be that the female is missing out on food due to more active fish getting there first and the active fish are keeping her from getting enough rest.

Swimbladder: Impaction, as saint said, or a bacterial infection. Another treatment that has worked for me is feeding medicated foods. I'm guessin' the antibiotics get where they need to go faster when absorbed by the digestive tract.

Finally, I'd say 10-12 small fish (2" or less) to a cycled 75 and 15-20 to a 125. I started with 9 glowlights in my 55 planted tank, and they're all goin' strong.

WYite

The other thing I've tried to get rid of snails is take a clean 20oz plastic soda bottle and fill it with tank water so it sinks then drop a couple of algae wafers in there. Then you just pull the bottle out when the snails come. It may take a few times to get them all.

I've tried the veggie way of removing them but every time I would pick up the veggies the snails would drop off. The soda bottle prevents that from happening.

dirtydawg10 wrote:

The other thing I've tried to get rid of snails is take a clean 20oz plastic soda bottle and fill it with tank water so it sinks then drop a couple of algae wafers in there. Then you just pull the bottle out when the snails come. It may take a few times to get them all.

I've tried the veggie way of removing them but every time I would pick up the veggies the snails would drop off. The soda bottle prevents that from happening.

That's a great idea, dawg.

In my overly caffeinated pacu rant, I totally missed the only the females part of the initial problem. If it is only the females that it's happening too, then I'm going to agree with Wyite on it being birthing stress.

Wyomingite wrote:

That's a great idea, dawg.

TY...I picked that trick up somewhere in my internet fish site journeys but for the life of me I can't remember where. I have no more ramshorns in my 10gal since I learned that one

I did not know clown loaches would. We use the comet goldfish. It seems to me though that they need to be at least 3-4 inches long before they show interest.

I didn't realize puffers were so aggressive. We don't sell them.

I enjoyed the sound effects, Wyite. Nom nom nom.

I think birthing stress makes sense. If I remember correctly, he does not separate the females. Those poor females. The males just assume the females will be all ready as soon as they pop out the babies. Males are so selfish.

Thanks for the numbers Wyite. That's about what I usually sell for those size tanks. I assume adding larger fish would decrease how many you can add.

And I love the pop bottle idea.

NEW QUESTIONS

There are some fish that we drip acclimate when we receive them in the store: pictus catfish, silver-tip sharks, bala sharks, angelfish, rasboras, and neon tetras. I was told they are more sensitive when being added to a tank, and to tell customers that in order to have a gradual change they should put a small pin hole in the bag and let it float 30-45 minutes. I sometimes mention that they can slowly add small amounts of their tank water into the fish's water. Is this good to suggest?

I told a customer that certain fish will snack on live plants, such as the mollies. My coworker states that, "Actually, all of them will, but some won't do it enough to worry about." Who's right?

Incandescent or fluoroscent light bulbs? Why?


On a personal note...I'm an idiot and now one of my bettas in a bowl died. I had been treating her for weeks...I'm not sure what she had, but she looked so skinny and horrible, and her eyes were white and her fins were clamped. I had gotten her to looking normal and her fins were not as clamped, she just still looked skinny. When she was all better, I was going to move her into the 10 gallon.

On Saturday afternoon I turned off the heat because it was warmer, and I completely forgot about it and spent the weekend with a family member. It snowed last night. I came home today, and it was below 60 in my apartment. Fortunately, all my other fish and my snake and frogs are ok. But she was dead.

1beataway wrote:

I enjoyed the sound effects, Wyite. Nom nom nom.

Sound effects courtesy of saint_felony, he's the one that got me doin' it...

1beataway wrote:

I think birthing stress makes sense. If I remember correctly, he does not separate the females. Those poor females. The males just assume the females will be all ready as soon as they pop out the babies. Males are so selfish.

Hey, now wait a minute there...

1beataway wrote:

Thanks for the numbers Wyite. That's about what I usually sell for those size tanks. I assume adding larger fish would decrease how many you can add.

And I love the pop bottle idea.

No prob, and the pop bottle idea is great.

1beataway wrote:

NEW QUESTIONS

There are some fish that we drip acclimate when we receive them in the store: pictus catfish, silver-tip sharks, bala sharks, angelfish, rasboras, and neon tetras. I was told they are more sensitive when being added to a tank, and to tell customers that in order to have a gradual change they should put a small pin hole in the bag and let it float 30-45 minutes. I sometimes mention that they can slowly add small amounts of their tank water into the fish's water. Is this good to suggest?

I wouldn't acclimate a fish by pokin' a hole in the bag. That allows water from the store to get into the tank, which isn't always a good thing due to the potential of introducin' parasites and diseases to your tank. You are better off adding small amounts of the tank water to the bag or to siphon water from the tank through an air tube into the bag (or a small bucket, jar, etc.), using a clothes hanger or one of them metal paper holder clips to regulate the rate of drip.

1beataway wrote:

I told a customer that certain fish will snack on live plants, such as the mollies. My coworker states that, "Actually, all of them will, but some won't do it enough to worry about." Who's right?

There are a number of fish that I've never heard of buggin' live plants. I'll disagree when your coworker says all fish will nibble on live plants. A lot of cichlids and other large and/or digging fish will uproot them, but they don't nibble. Most smaller tetras, barbs, rasboras, etc. and dwarf cichlids ignore the plants, except as shelter. If anyone has info to the contrary, please pipe in...

1beataway wrote:

Incandescent or fluoroscent light bulbs? Why?

Incandescents usually are less energy efficient, give off more heat (which can overheat a small tank) and have a different color spectrum. Flourescents are cooler to run, generally more energy efficient and come in a broad range of light spetrums that allow an aquarist to suit his needs, from showing off the colors of fish to planted and marine tanks. Flourescents are more expensive initially, but the cost is saved over time. IMO, if it wasn't for the cheaper cost of incandescents, they'd have stopped makin' hoods with 'em years ago. With the wide variety of flourescents available these days, there really isn't any reason to use incandescents.

1beataway wrote:

On a personal note...I'm an idiot and now one of my bettas in a bowl died. I had been treating her for weeks...I'm not sure what she had, but she looked so skinny and horrible, and her eyes were white and her fins were clamped. I had gotten her to looking normal and her fins were not as clamped, she just still looked skinny. When she was all better, I was going to move her into the 10 gallon.

On Saturday afternoon I turned off the heat because it was warmer, and I completely forgot about it and spent the weekend with a family member. It snowed last night. I came home today, and it was below 60 in my apartment. Fortunately, all my other fish and my snake and frogs are ok. But she was dead.

Sorry to hear about that. It always sucks to loose an animal.

WYite

That was the biggest issue with me, allowing our water into the tank, because I had always heard not to do that. I know we use air tubing to drip acclimate the fish we get in, but we do end up using the water they came in. I will now suggest otherwise! But is it definitely a good idea to do something extra for those fish I mentioned?

I'm so glad my coworker was wrong! BTW, my Anubias (spelling?) looks fantastic in my tank. It grows fast.

That is really good info on bulbs. Thanks!

What an interesting thread....lots of good questions and answers!

The drip acclimation is definitely a good idea for those fish....actually it would help ALL the fish. It is a process I picked up when I worked in a saltwater-only LFS, and I have used it on my own fish ever since.

It's been awhile! I hate having a broken laptop.

I've been putting the info I've received here to good use. Just in the past week, I've had two customers tell me, "I've had tanks before, and no one has ever given me this information before. They just give me the fish when I buy the tank." They thanked me and they, along with a few other customers, said to me, "I'll make sure to look for you when it's time to buy my fish."

That being said, I'm awaiting an answer from my manager as to whether I'm getting a promotion. She's suppose to talk to the store manager today, but she was also suppose to talk to him last Thursday. I won't be in management, but I would be right under, and get to boss my coworkers in my department. So wish me luck.

And one of my customers loved the idea about the pop bottle to catch snails.

So...more questions. On our bottles of Ph Up and Ph Down, it states that even a 0.2 difference in Ph can stress fish out. If our tanks are at 7.2 or 7.4, and a customer's 55 gallon is 7.8, that's not going to kill them, right? What is the best way for customers to handle Ph difference if they keep their tanks at the high normal or the low normal because certain fish do better at different Ph levels? Is drip acclimating going to work, or should they really not worry if their Ph is less than 1.0 different than ours?

A customer came to me yesterday and I wasn't sure what to tell her about her fish. My manager told her it sounded bacterial and fungal, and the customer ended up an all-in-one tablet (how well do these works, btw? Obviously it would be best to buy a medicine specifically for a disease, but could a tablet that treats parasites, fungus, and bacteria really be a good deal?). According to the customer, the fish had popeye, a red spot on the side and stomach, fins were clamped, and there was something wrong with the gills near the fins.

Is fungus contagious? I have been given conflicting answers. Another customer told me that her fish died and a "black worm" came out of its mouth and "made its stomach blow up." Any idea?

Lots of customers lately have been asking tons of questions about the blood parrot fish. How aggressive are they? It seems most ask about mixing them with goldfish, but I think the shape and color are confusing customers.

It depends on the type, but for the most part Parrots aren't bad for cichlids. Unless they're breeding, I find them to be on par with Severums as far as aggression goes. That being said I would not not not (did I mention not?) put them in with goldfish. They'd pick 'em to bits.

I'm not sure how specific your store gets with them, but when the fish farm brought them in now and again, there were plain parrots, and they had ones called king kong parrots. If you couldn't guess by the name the king kong ones got significantly larger than the regular variety, and am assuming would be meaner just based on the combination of fish to get them that large. Regulars are supposed to be more Convict based and the king kong's Midas based.

As for the black worm, there are many parasites that fish can get, and it's quite possible that it had one. Most of the worms I've seen in fish are usually from ones kept outside.

Fungus is usually a secondary infection from some other cause. Healthy fish normally wouldn't be bothered by it, but if there's one fish bad off in a tank that it's fungusy odds are good the other fish in with it aren't doing all that well either.

As for the meds, really just depends on what's in it. I'm sure there are tabs that have a decent mix of meds for fungus, bacterial and parasites but it's definitely better to try and get meds specific for the problem.

I had a very bad experiece with using chemicals with messing with the ph one time, so I tend not to use them for the most part. While I'm sure Wyite could name a half dozen fish that a .2 shift in ph will cause trouble for (Discus maybe?) I honestly don't know any. I'm assuming you guys are using the same local water as most of the customers that shop at the store, so unless someone has a water softener I'd think they'd be ok.

Good luck on the promotion.

Yeah, I always tell them they can't be mixed. I think people just assume they are goldfish because they of the color and shape. In the store I work at, they're at least 20 tanks away. It's weird. We sell Blood Parrot Cichlids and Blood Red Parrot Cichlids. We usually get the blood reds in at about double the size.

It's strange I've had so many disease questions lately. So with fungus, they could isolate just the sick ones in an isolation tank, and chances are the others will be fine?

The Ph thing was mostly because of an issue with a coworker. A customer with a 55 gallon lost 3 guppies, 2 females and 1 male. As I was talking to the customer, I found out my coworker had tested her water, told her the Ph definitely killed her guppies, sold her a Ph neutralizer...When we test water, we write the numbers down, so I looked, and her Ph was 7.8. I retested, and I thought it was more 7.6. In the store, ours is always 7.2 or 7.4. The customer said that for one of the guppies, it looked like the tail and back half was kind of chewed off. I told her it could be other fish, but with the fish she had and the size of tank, I didn't think it likely. Actually, I noticed that we had a few female guppies from our last shipment that looked kind of what she described, and I told her it doesn't happen very often, but sometimes we do get a bag in with a few sick. It's possible she got some guppies from the same bag and it was something that wasn't noticeable when she got them but it got worse. But I also told her I could be wrong about that, and that I really didn't feel the Ph did it. She asked me if I were her, if I would have bought the Ph neutralizer, and I told her no, so she returned it. She's going to give her tank a week or two to see if any others turn out sick before she puts more fish in, and she stated she was glad she ran into me before leaving.
The coworker didn't take it very well when I said that a 7.8 Ph wasn't a big enough difference to cause big problems. But my manager was there when I talked to the customer and told me to relay the information to her so she wouldn't say the same thing to other customers.

And thanks.

Oh also...my manager told me when we use our testing strips, to use the one that measures nitrates, nitrites, ph, hardness, alkalinity, and chlorine before using the ammonia test strip, because the ammonia one releases chemicals and it could cause the other strip to be inaccurate. True?

I'd check the directions that came with the strips. The only test strips I have are pool ones and I only use them for checking chlorine.

My test kit for other more specific things is all test tubes and droppers.

I dont think it releases anything...if it did wouldn't it be harmful to the fish. Not to mention it would be in such small amounts I am sure the ammonia test strips would not manipulate the others.

dirtydawg10 wrote:

The other thing I've tried to get rid of snails is take a clean 20oz plastic soda bottle and fill it with tank water so it sinks then drop a couple of algae wafers in there. Then you just pull the bottle out when the snails come. It may take a few times to get them all.

I've tried the veggie way of removing them but every time I would pick up the veggies the snails would drop off. The soda bottle prevents that from happening.

So the other day, I was getting some fish for a couple customers, and they asked about some plants, and I answered their questions. Then they started telling me that the fish they were buying were to eat those little snails in their tank. As we were talking, I found out they had quite a lot of snails, and were buying quite a few fish just to eat the snails. So I gave them this tip. They really appreciated the tip.

A few minutes later, I found out that they stopped the district manager who was visiting our store that day, and really complimented me, and said I really know my fish and I gave them helpful information.

So thanks!

Nice!! Glad you could pass on the info. Do you ever direct customers to FWM?

Glad to hear you are benefiting from info and passing it on.