My main purpose for joining this forum is because 1) I do work at a petstore and would appreciate having true information and 2) I'm starting to enjoy fish.

I have already talked to Wyomingite about a number of fish-related issues, but I think that one of the best ways for me to get the help I need is to start by posting the sort of information I have been trained with and tell the customers, and then you can all beat me down and tell me what's actually right.

-If a customer is buying each piece separately instead of a crappy starter kit, I usually recommend Marineland or AquaClear filters and Hydor heaters. I also recommend live plants and tell them an air pump adds oxygen to the tank but isn't necessary. When I sell them a water condition, I tell them I like Aquaeon or Nutrifin, but I'm not really sure if what brand is better than the other; I just know if I'm confident when I tell them that, they usually pick my suggestion.

-For a new tank, I tell a customer that they must set it up and have it running before adding any fish, one week for every 10 gallons. For a 10 gallon tank, I'll tell them the minimum is 4 or 5 days, for a 40-50 gallon, I tell them at least 2 1/2 weeks. Because of Wyomingite, I tell them that they should try to start from an established tank, or add a little bit of fish food to help start the bacteria growth.

-We tell customers 1 gallon of water per inch of fish, or 2 gallons if it's goldfish. There are some exceptions though. Angels should never be in smaller than a 29 gallon. We don't sell oscars unless they have at least a 30 gallon but we recommend at least a 50. Dragon gobies and pacus are sold only to customers with a 75 gallon (though most of us break the rule if they have a 55 gallon). Balas need at least a 30 gallon. To make things easy for customers, fish are divided into group, and the customer should try to buy the fish from the same group: goldfish, South American cichlids, African cichlids, semi-aggressive, and tropical community. There are some exceptions to this. Like, oscars should only be with other oscars (though, I have heard of people successfully keeping Oscars, Jack Dempsy's, and Pacus together), and black skirt tetras and mollies like to get nippy so you have to be cautious what you put in with them.

-We do not suggest mixing goldfish and tropical fish because of the ammonia the goldfish release, but if a customer has a 55 gallon, they could put in a goldfish with other fish, if they're really dying to.

-I know that balas are schooling, but since most customers are only going to have the very bare minimum (30 gallon), we don't even tell customers that. Many, many people try to put one in a 10 gallon. Many, many people try to argue that fish grow to the size of their habitat. What I tell them is that 1) it works more the opposite way, that the bigger a fish tank is, the more likely that the fish will pass the average length, and 2) that the fish grow to a point where the tank is too small for their needs and they get sick and die prematurely. I get the people who'll still argue and say, "I had a bala in a 10 gallon for 2 years and it only got this long." And then I say, "They can live for much longer than that."

-I'm almost completely clueless what to suggest to customers when they have sick fish. I know that I've used aquarium salt for fin rot on my betta and it worked pretty quickly. I will usually say something like, "Oh, it looks like this? Let me see....well this medicine has a picture of that. Try this." I know that customers can add something like stress coat when they add fish, but I never know what else to suggest.

I'll leave it at that for now, and then can add more later. Feel free to comment, criticize, and ask questions. Thanks!

I'll start with that I run a fish and reptile rescue but specialize mostly with turtles. You didn't mention what petstore you work at, but I can hope it's not a Petsmart.

It's 4am. I'll do some comments on your points, to get things started.

I don't like Aquaclear filters. They've always died on me fairly quickly or don't do a good job. Marineland HOB, the Emperor 400 especially, is pretty awesome.

Other filters that can take a beating and do a good job are:
Whisper internal series (any of the ones with the pumps, i40, i20 ect.) making your own filter inserts is a much better way to go with them tho instead of the premade ones. Especially for filthy filthy turtles.

Rena canister filters the XP series is awesome, and Rena's CS is outstanding. I've had parts break on 7 year old filters and they've sent me out parts to fix it free.

Depending on how big a tank, Pondmaster gear is also full of awesome as far as filters go too.

Heaters: Almost any submersible and dial selectable heater is fine. Avoid all Penn Plex glass heaters like the plague. Their Guardian series though is fine. Most of my heaters are Marineland Stealth. They're guaranteed for life and they've never given me any trouble replacing any that died. If memory serves Hydor makes all the All Glass Aquarium kit heaters too, they're just branded AGA.

Established tank, fish food, or my personal favorite, feeder goldfish, though I'm pretty sure most of your customers don't have turtles to eat any that live through the cycling process.

I know Angel breeders that use 10g tanks.

Pacus in a 55 can be tank-bust-arific. Heck. I have Pacu here now that wouldn't fit comfortably in a 75. They can get big. Not just big, but BIG. My lot of Pacu average two feetish. Many many people don't realize how big the adults can get, which is why they're here.

So long as they're close in size, Oscars will get along with JDs, Pacu, or other a number of other surly SA cichlids. It's a good start as far as division goes, but obviously there's some exceptions there as well. Angels and Discus for example are SA Cichlids, but they'd get pounded if you put 'em in with JD or Midas or most of the other SA Cichlids.

Small goldfish and White Clouds work just fine. Goldfish and what are commonly around here called Chinese Hi-Finned Banded Sharks, also work out just dandy. Goldfish get massive, as do the banded sharks, so you'd eventually need something pretty big to keep them in.

I'm not sure of a good all purpose fish med, that's usually a case by case basis, but I'm sure there's a few that will cover *most* of the usual ailments.

Just curious, what do you not like about Petsmart?

I do suggest the Rena canisters too, as well as the Fluval canisters, but it's hard to get most people to pay an extra hundred dollars for a filter. Plus....I kinda know how they work and that they are much better, but I can't answer all of the filter questions I get. This is true of HOB filters as well though.

I bet that heater is just like the one I tell customers to avoid. Lots of other customers tell me stories about how that one stops working and gets the tank over 100 degrees and fries their fish. Hydor does make all glass heaters.

Breeders might put angels in a 10g, but I'm not letting someone who is planning on just having a couple angels get them for a 10g.

I love the look of pacus. It's only recently that our picture tag states "75+ gallons." I think it use to be 30, but maybe it was 50. For the dragon goby, it use to be 30. But it -kills- me to sell them for small tanks. Especially for that customer the other day.

I think about the meds, I rather know more about Pimafix and...the other "fix".

Thanks!

I don't want to give any wrong info and will leave most questions to MC, Saint, and Wyite. All I have to say, as at one point I was one of the average stubborn customers. I know how they think. If you've done it once, you can do it again.

the thing about using an air pump is that it makes poeple over confident. theythink that if there is that much more air they can havve more fish. that just puts too much bioload on a tank. Dont get me wrong, hey have their place. i use one in my sump to oxygenate the water before it gets pumped back into my discus tank.
also, bubbles in the water create pressure waves that the fish can feel. some smaller more nervous fish may interpret that as a bigger hungry fish lurking where itcant be seen, ane that caused stress.

Filters: Marineland Penguin Or Emperors are my favorites, easy to clean have a biowheel for good bacteria to prosper. Rena's and Whispers are good too.

Heaters, I agree with saint...Marineland Stealths for me all the way...black, easy to hide and hard plastic also never had a temp problem.

Meds, well almost hard to sell them with out much info...Now that being said API makes a lot of good meds. Melafix and Pimafix will take care of most mild bacterial ad fungal infections. Water changes can also be beneficial to sick fish.

When discussion of tank size and fish 1 inch per gallon should not be used. There are many factors that come into tank size......waste production, size of adult fish, aggression and so on. For instance African Cichlids in general can be from 4-6 inches but due to aggression this would not be advisable. Also this would not work in the case of an Oscar. A 12 inch Oscar in a 12 gallon...not gonna work, get my drift.

As for water conditioners I use Prime it is the best hands down!

Umm...Pacus belong in a pond, Oscars need a 75g minimum, A single angel should have 20g a 29g for two unless you are running a breeding project then smaller tank will serve. I know I missed something just wanted to give my opinion...I would tell people to research impulse may end up in failure....suggest FWM to anyone you cant provide answers to.

Marineland filters are the ones I usually recommend. I had heard from a self-proclaimed saltwater expert that they were the best, and he took several minutes explaining why.

And yeah, I tell customers when the one inch rule can't be used...but in general, we're suppose to use it. "How many fish can I have in a 10 gallon?" "If you get our larger community fish, like mollies, you can have 4. If you get smaller ones like guppies, then you can have 6 or 7." We're not allowed to sell oscars for smaller than 30 gallons, or pacus for less than 75 (though many will sell them for 55), or angels for less than 20, or goldfish for less than 10 (and we recommend more), or any sort of cichlid for less than 20. We can sell a guppy for 1 gallon. We can sell bettas for any size container at all. We can sell red-tail sharks for 10 gallon. We can sell 2 platies for a 5 gallon. We can sell a regular pleco for a 10 gallon tank (though I try really hard to talk them into another type of algae eater).

Is Prime really the best? Why?

Is Omega One really the best food? (out of what we sell at least...We carry Top Fin, Aqueon, Tetra, Omega One, and Wardly).

I can't speak for every Petsmart, but all three Petsmart stores near me are some of the dirtiest, stinkiest, (as in the fish department actually smells bad) places to get animals I've ever been in.

Until a few years ago, I had never shopped in a Petsmart. Then one opened near me in a shopping center not far. They had an event at the store for the grand opening and a bunch of rescues had tables (including us) at it. We adopted out a few animals and I got to talking with the manager. We had set up something with fish or reptiles that got dropped off at the store, and I'd occasionally give a hand with new reptiles for them to sell that came in to see if they were healthy. After about 8 months, I had found out that the manager was what they called an Opening manager, and that he got transferred to a new store.

They brought in the official manager, who after two or three weeks in charge turned the place into a complete shit hole. Around the time that was going down, we took in a gigantic pleco that outgrew the tank it was in, and as a thank you, the lady we got it from gave us a Petsmart gift card. I stopped in, since I hadn't heard anything from them in a few weeks figuring I'd get food or supplies and say hi. I saw what had happened and started talking with one of the employees I knew that told me about the manager situation. So I went to talk to the manager and after 5 minutes of me trying to talk to him, he basically said, since I was the only person who complained since he took over he didn't care what I though.

So I decided to go down to the other Petsmart, to use the gift card, since I didn't want anything to do with that store anymore, and found it was a dirty hole as well. For the hell of it, I tried one by my friend's place a half an hour or so away from either of the other two and it was just as disgusting.

When Walmart has a nicer fish department than an actual fish store, it's a problem.

Anyway. You outed yourself by mentioning Top Fin brand.

For filters that's the division for me. For HOB Filters Marineland Emperor is awesome. If I go with a canister, I usually default to Rena. Fluval is nice too, don't get me wrong, but I have a big box of spare Rena parts just in case. I'm surprised that the Salty guy was big on Marineland HOBs. The few hardcore salt folks I know, one is in love with Eheim, and the other one uses Lifeguard Aquatics something or other.

As far as food goes, I've used everything on your list except Top Fin brand since they don't sell in bulk. I haven't had any real problems with any of them. Type of food, for what your feeding is far more important I think than brand. You don't want floating pellets for a bottom feeder and things like that.

I tend to stick to generic food: goldfish/koi pellets, cichlid/carnivore pellets, generic flakes and sinking algae and shrimp pellets. I tend to avoid any of the "especially for Free Swimming Peruvian Spider Monkeys" crap that they like to put out, but there may be some types of fish where food like that actually does matter. Those aren't fish I'm likely to see tho.

I know a lot of people like Prime, but I haven't seen any dechlorinators that are particularly bad. I have a large jug of the Hikari brand one right now courtesy of the Hikari rep I know. I've used Jungle Labs ones, and I think Kordon too. When we need it, I tend to get the cheapest one in the largest bucket I can find.

Hell leaving the water sit out in an open container for a day or two in a 5 gallon jug has almost the same effect.

I agree with MC completely too, btw. Pacu are best kept in a pond or a livestock tub. My group live in a pond I built for them. I have a powerhead set up for them so they can act like they're swimming in a stream, but I've seen them get crazy and have hit the wall with enough force that if it were glass, they'd have busted it.

saint_felony wrote:

...Anyway. You outed yourself by mentioning Top Fin brand. ...

LMAO. See, 1beataway? I'm not the only one that picked up on that!

WYite

saint_felony wrote:

When Walmart has a nicer fish department than an actual fish store, it's a problem.

Anyway. You outed yourself by mentioning Top Fin brand.

The few hardcore salt folks I know, one is in love with Eheim, and the other one uses Lifeguard Aquatics something or other.

Hell leaving the water sit out in an open container for a day or two in a 5 gallon jug has almost the same effect.

I agree with MC completely too, btw. Pacu are best kept in a pond or a livestock tub.

1) Yeah that would be sad. Everytime I go to Wal-mart, every single fish has ick, the oscars have hole-in-the-head, there's dead fish everywhere, the picture tag shows a much smaller size than what they really get, and fish that shouldn't be together are. The store I work at is very good, very clean.

2) Perhaps I used the generic store-brand of another store to confuse you all! (insert evil laugh here).

3) The saltwater expert who talked to me for so long loved Eheim. But we don't sell Eheim and he was telling me about what we had. Plus he went on about helping Marineland with the patent for the bio-wheel, but I'm not sure that's true. He said he created some saltwater group in Cali long ago.

4) Customers have asked me this before...You can't just do that, right? You need to add water conditioner?

5) Aren't Pacu tropical? So...what about the people living in cold places?

BTW, enjoyed the chat...With exhaustion and homework, I barely remember it. I'm sure you said good things.

Well if you live somewhere cold a pond could be inside....but an aquarium is no place for a Pacu....I pisses me off most they are even sold in chain stores, let alone people letting them be sold to someone with less than say 500 gallons. Prime IMO opinion is best cause of the price compared to how much water you can treat with it....It also does not have aloe which is not good for some fish gill functions.....

I had no idea they need 500 gallons. I had heard 125. I know that they are not even allowed to be sold in some states because so many people try to keep them and then release them into the wild.

500 is excessive for a single Pacu. My 5 currently live in an 800ish gallon (indoor) pond. While potentially a bit on the small side, you could keep a single or maybe a pair of pacu in one of the 200g Rubbermaid Livestock tubs. They're 2 foot by 6 foot by around 32 inches wide.

Unless you had a custom made, heavy duty reinforced tank I would not put them in glass housing. At feeding time they're part puppy, part frat boy. It's not that they intentionally rearrange like cichlids do, they're just rowdy.

Wyite can correct me if I'm missing something, but chlorine in the water is the biggest problem as far as I know for fish. Those dechlorinators, speed up the breakdown process so you don't have to leave a big jug of water sitting around. Anyone who's maintained a pool can tell you just how fast chlorine evaporates from the water, and I would think the amount of chlorine in drinking water would be even less than what it would be to keep a pool running.

At the very least my mom's been using the, keep a few 5 gallon jugs of water open sitting around method of water changes for as long as I can remember and all her fish do just fine.

saint_felony wrote:

Wyite can correct me if I'm missing something, but chlorine in the water is the biggest problem as far as I know for fish. Those dechlorinators, speed up the breakdown process so you don't have to leave a big jug of water sitting around. Anyone who's maintained a pool can tell you just how fast chlorine evaporates from the water, and I would think the amount of chlorine in drinking water would be even less than what it would be to keep a pool running.

If the water department in your area uses chloramines, they don't evaporate. And some areas switch up seasonally between chlorine and chloramines. If you can't get a definite answer from the local water department on which is used, then I recommend ya play it safe and always use a water conditioner.

Other than that, ya nailed it. Chlorine will easily dissipate in 24 hours if the water is aereated.

WYite

That's really good information to know about chlorine removers. Lots of customers ask me if they can add too much water conditioner too. I always tell them, just follow the directions and that's all they need. But some people want to triple the amount. I'm unsure why. Same with aquarium salt though. I had someone say it looked like her fish scales were melting off and we found out that she added three or four times the amount of salt she should of, and all at once.

You make me want pacus even more! I do hate that we sell them though. We recently got our information tag about them changed, and now they say 75+ gallons. Before, they said 30+. And we sold them for 30 gallons. Truthfully, in the beginning, I didn't realize they got so big. But after I did, I still had to sell them if a customer had at least 30 gallon.

Well 500g is excessive but they can get upwards of 2.5 feet so a lot of water is required along with greta filtration.

Heavy duty filtration, extreme filtration even.

I'm still amazed they they used to clear them for a 30g tank. Madness.

Do they sell Koi there as well? I'm curious what they say the size requirements are for them.

Yeah, we do. Most of the customers who buy them do so for a pond, but every once in a while I'll get one buying them for a tank. I've had to sell one for a 10 gallon, but otherwise, we sell them for 50 gallons plus. I tell customers, they're koi, they'll get two feet long, and when they're that long they're going to make a huge mess in their tank. I sold some to a couple customers yesterday who had a 40 gallon, but when I told them that they were koi and how long they would get, she said to her husband, "Oh cool, we could start them in the tank and then put them in the pond in the spring."

I wouldn't say treat them like koi. I've seen some old koi, may be 40+ yrs in a huge pond, like what you'd go fishing for sunfish in, that were 4ft. Also, Pacus maybe able to reach 3ft. I think thats Black Pacus that do anyway. I'd say treat them like a honking disk that can swim that produces as much waste as a koi.

They honk?

I don't think they honk 1beataway i think that might be a kind of fish.

Yea, just what we don't need. Pacu that make noise. It's bad enough the RTC does it now and again at me.

It's not something I'd ever do but one of the crazier things I've seen was a fairly massive fish pond outside a car rental place in Southern Cali. They had koi and pacu together and were getting along just fine. The guy who tended to the pond said that he had to move out some butterfly koi that the pacu would occasionally pick on, but otherwise, they got along just fine.

I meant by honking as in size. Pacus are huge. Pacus, RTC, Shovelnose, Common plecs, gibbiceps, and ID sharks need to be removed from trade, or atleat only sent to reliable stores.

I think they should be removed too. Do you know Wal-Mart sells them too? Last time I went there, they were in the same tank as the oscars, and the information tag said 10".

If fish have ick, and a person treats the tank and either cures it from the fish that remain or loses all their fish...before they get new fish, do they have to completely dump out all the water and scrub decorations, or should the ick be gone? I'm under the impression, especially if they treated the tank, that the ick isn't going to be waiting in the water and decor to get the new fish.

I have one customer who says that every single time he has a female guppy or platy who looks pregnant, the fish will be round one day and really skinny the next, like it had the babies, but then the body looks way too thin and almost pinched, and then the female dies. Any ideas?

Are veggie foods the best thing to treat swim bladder?

What is a good way to get rid of pesky little quickly-breeding snails? We put comet goldfish in our tanks, but that wouldn't work for a customer with a 10 or 20 gallon maxed out tank. I've heard that "Had-a-Snail" doesn't work well.

Siphon the snails out is the best way to rid them....Also veggies are good to help swim bladder problems...I recommend reading this article regarding ICH.

ICH ARTICLE (CLICK)