I was going to post this in a cichlid section, but...they're not split the same way that our cichlids are and I was torn about which to pick.

At the store I have, we have South American and African Cichlids. This is what I was trained with, "You cannot mix South Americans with Africans" and "Oscars can only be with other oscars." I still know nothing, though on my own I have determined that Midas are aggressive, as well as the one we call Electric Blue (I forget the name now...It starts with an A, but I know there are a couple like that). I also enjoy watching Red Snooks eat, but we don't sell those anymore, and we had one called pike (though, it turns out that when I say Pike, there's a huge list of fish it could be...we stopped selling them too, and it's too bad, because they were one of my favorites). It seems to me that the Africans are brighter and less aggressive than the South Americans, but maybe that's just the few species we have. South Americans do seem more popular.

With South Americans, we carry Oscars, Jack Dempseys, Blood Parrots (red, and the non-red sort of yellow ones), Black Convicts (which are in the same tank as the Manganesse, and I can -never- tell them apart), Midas, Firemouth, and Turquoise Chevrons.

With Africans, we have two "Assorted Africans" tanks, Bumblebees, Malawis, Ice Blue (I love this coloring), Red Albino Zebra (I think), green terrors, Jewel Cichlid, Kenyi, Aceli....and quite a few other ones whose names are escaping me right now.

Besides the Oscars, we require 20 gallon tank for all the rest. What can really mix? And....if we're told South Americans and Africans can't mix because they live in 2 different areas, you would think the store would tell us how to take care of each kind, but there was nothing, so what are the different requirements? I love that they are intermediate and advanced fish, but we get no information on that. Cichlids require a slightly more alkaline tank, correct?

Is there a way to differentiate between male and female Oscars? I know how to tell the difference for Africans, and the reason for those spots (those frisky little fish), but not South Americans.

How many feeder fish per week is acceptable for oscars? Do they get hole-in-the head if you feed them too much? If you feed cichlids only pellets, will they get everything they need, or should extra food be provided sparingly?

I have more questions, but this post already seems all over the place.

Africans, the ones you speak of are primarily omnivores..they require a lot of vegetable matter in the diet as well as lower protien foods. Meaty or live foods with high protien can give them a deadly condition called Malawi Bloat. Besides this the Africans you speak of require much harder water than the SA/CA Cichlids you sell.

Sexing Oscars is almost impossible unless they breed and at a size less than 6 inches pretty much impossible. The egg spots on the Africans don't always mean Male. Also some Africans can pose as a female when male the only sure way to determaine sex is venting or looking at their breeding toube compared to their anus.

A good pellet is best for Oscars as they need a good balance to be healthy and clean water is essential. Feeders have really no nutritional value and should only be provided as an occasional snack as they are like potato chips.

Hope I have shed some light on things. We have a lot of Cichlid knowledge here so we can get you on track with these guys.

Very good information. I didn't realize that Africans could get sick from live foods. What type of vegetable matter should they be fed? Omega One is made of fresh seafood, so just that type of pellet wouldn't be good? In this area, we have hard tap water anyways.

What I was told was "If there's one or two spot, it's most likely to be male, but it could be a female. If there's a few spots, then it's a male." Sometimes, the ones with the spots are more dominant, more colorful, and bigger...is this still not a guarantee it's male?

Would you recommend feeders once a week, or should it be even more sparingly?

1beataway wrote:

Very good information. I didn't realize that Africans could get sick from live foods. What type of vegetable matter should they be fed? Omega One is made of fresh seafood, so just that type of pellet wouldn't be good? In this area, we have hard tap water anyways.

As far as processed foods, anything with a high plant content. There are flakes and pellets on the market that have a high content of spirulina algae. Frozen or freeze dried spirulina is good. Algae wafers are a hit and miss with Africans IME. Blanched cucumbers and peas are good, the peas hafta be shelled though. The thin skin on each pea has to be removed 'cuz they don't eat it and it'll foul the water. Blanched romaine lettuce and spinach are always recommended, though IME fish won't touch either. I don't know why 'cuz they are always poppin' up in the literature. I won't say yea or nay to 'em, I just don't have luck feedin' 'em.

As far as the Omega One, it's the high protein content that leads to Malawi bloat. I don't know what the percentage is. I wouldn't reccomend regular feedings to Malawi mbuna of anything that is less than 50% plant material or with a protein content greater than 40%.

Malawi haplochromines are a different story, much more variable. Many of them are actually piscivores and don't suffer ill-effects from high protein foods. However, a few extra veggies in the diet never hurt anyone...

1beataway wrote:

What I was told was "If there's one or two spot, it's most likely to be male, but it could be a female. If there's a few spots, then it's a male." Sometimes, the ones with the spots are more dominant, more colorful, and bigger...is this still not a guarantee it's male?

Africans are so varied this is kind of a toughie, since it's complicated. A lot of species have extreme sexual dichromatism as adults, but it isn't visible in juveniles. Egg spots are a hit and miss. Generally speaking, what you were told about one or two egg spots and multiple eggspots is a fair guideline, though I've seen a lot of females with one or two eggspots. Again, this is a generalization that differs from species to species. I've never seen a female Melanochromis sp. with egg spots, but I've seen plenty of rusty cichlid females with 'em and a lot of Metriaclima sp. with 'em.

1beataway wrote:

Would you recommend feeders once a week, or should it be even more sparingly?

I'd suggest once a month or less, personally. I've always gone 4-6 times a year with large predators.

1beataway wrote:

With Africans, we have two "Assorted Africans" tanks, Bumblebees, Malawis, Ice Blue (I love this coloring), Red Albino Zebra (I think), green terrors, Jewel Cichlid, Kenyi, Aceli....and quite a few other ones whose names are escaping me right now.

Coupla notes here. Malawis is a broad term, anything from Lake Malawi, and the fish that ya get as assorted Malawis will be a variety of different species. Green terrors are a SA species from the Amazon basin of eastern Peru and Columbia. Jewel cichlids are a West African hemichromine species that will actually show its color better in softer water than Malawi or Tanganyikan cichlids. Bumblebees, acei, electric yellow labidochromis, and red zebras are all mbuna. Kenyi are the easiest to sex of the mbuna you listed, with males turnin' a bright yellow at maturity. Remember, a blue kenyi doesn't always guarantee female, though; it could be a sub-dominant male. I'd guess the electric blue is either Sciaenochromis fryeri or Sciaenochromis ahli, though I've also seen Placidochromis electra sold under that trade name. Regardless, all three are haplochromine cichlids rather than mbuna.

WYite

Very good sound advice from all!

I try not to feed feeders to fish at all. Turtles are another story, since they get calcium from the little fishy bones (bit of vitamin e to for that matter) and you don't have nearly the potential for disease to pass to them.

MC came close with his potato chip analogy. Unless you breed and grow out your own, feeder fish are like potato chips where 1 out of 6 has something on it that will give you a stomach bug.

I don't normally do much with Africans, so I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not, but I know someone who uses, koi summer maintainer pellets as a staple and puts in fresh live plants once every week or two, and has a pretty gorgeous looking tank.

Oh and Wyite, if it is a Petsmart, it's Sciaenochromis ahli, or at least that's what it was at the one by me.

I did check last night, and the electric blue is Ahli. We also sell Aurustus, or something like that, as well as red zebras and red-finned albino zebras. The rest are what I mentioned. I believe I'm still missing one or two, because I remember a bright orange one, but I can't remember the name now. It was busy at work. As far as the assorted tank goes...I know it's just an assortment. I've seen some in there that look just like our other ones, and I had one customer who picked a few from there and picked them out by name.

With Africans, how well does the rule "Just keep them the same size" work as far as keeping them together? Are there some that should just not be put in the same tank? Why can Africans and South Americans not be mixed? Can any of these cichlids be mixed with angelfish (this is a pretty common question I get, actually)?

Ok lets lay down another history lesson...lol! Mbuna that are sold at most Petsmarts...

Ice Blue Zebra (Metriaclima greshakei) And (albino)
Auratus (Melanochromis Auratus)
Bumblebee (Pseudotropheus crabro)
Kenyi (Pseudotropheus lombardoi)
Red Zebra (Pseudotropheus estherae)

These are a list of the most aggressive species that I can remember...they can be housed together and should be kept in groups of four or more (3 females to 1 Male). Unless keeping a mixed tank. Out of this list the Kenyi IME are the most aggressive I have been bit several times by my Lombardois. These all stay about 5-6 inches with the exception of the Crabo which can get to 8 inches. The ones listed above are very aggressive and should be kept in a 75g tank for optimum success.

Now we will get to the less aggressive species.
Electric Yellow Lab (Labidochromis caeruleus)
Jewel Cichlid (Hemichromis bimaculatus) Non Malawi, west African.
Ahli (Sciaenochromis ahli)
Red Peacock (Aulonocara (Rubescens))

Thats all I can think of now...as far as Africans at Petsmart. Now The ones I just listed are somewhat random...The electric yellow is the least aggressive with the Jewel being close second. My first list including the electric yellow and Ahli are rift lake Cichlids...they require hard water PH 8.0 and KH of about 200 ppm. Anyway back to the second list, the jewel is not a rift lake Cichlid and requires softer water although could acclimate. The Ahli is the biggest of this group and has a more elongated shape. Peacocks are a different story and should not really be kept with the others listed. Also the Peacock is a carnivore and peaceful.

Now, the South and Central Americans typically found.
Jack Dempsay (Archocentrus Octofasciatus)
Green Terror (Aequidens rivulatus)
Midas (Amphilophus citrinellus)
Red Devil (Amphilophus labiatus)
Red Parrot
Angels
Oscars (Astronatus ocellatus)
Jaguars (Parachromis managuensis)
Convicts (Archocentrus nigrofasciatus)
Firemouths (Thorichthys meeki)

I may of missed some... Jaguars, Midas, And Red Devils are hands down the meanest, most robust and most aggressive out of the New Worlds. The Convicts and firemouths being the smallest but aggressive for their size. Given a large tank, proper filtration can be kept together with caution. The Angel is the exception to this. Angels will get destroyed but pretty much all the fish listed including the Africans....they are also a bit more delicate...Good tank mates for Angels would include Discus, Ram Cichlids, Apistos and many Tetras and peaceful fish, they do well in community non Cichlid tanks.

Now IMO Africans are more aggressive than New Worlds at least for what I have listed with some exceptions.....that being said the New worlds get much bigger so in size comparision they should not be kept together. Their water and diet requirements are different and the size difference would pose a problem. Between the Old worlds and new worlds listed they also have behavioral differences and breeding techniques.

So in Angels are best suited for a peaceful community type setting. Africans and New Worlds should not be mixed for many reasons stated. Not all African rift lake fish are suitable to go together....the weak or less aggressive will not survive or thrive.

Can you tell I have shopped chain stores for a long time....In fact a lot of my fish are Petsmart fish and I keep or have kept all these listed....some trial and error to go along with it. Hope This helps you understand....I know it is a lot to take in but you will be much more knowledgeable when we get done with ya!

First off, that was a great post. And hey, abuse me all you want with knowledge.

Ok...some of the points. How do you change the hardness of the water? The water in this area is very hard anyways. But I was told by my manager that using a water softener will increase the PH.

Ahli's are less aggressive? Every single time we have more than one in a tank, the dominant will kill any others within a few hours. We had one that killed every single one we got in for like 2 months.

I was pretty sure that Angels would be bad with Cichlids, but I thought I'd ask and make sure since I do get that question.

I'm pretty sure that our information tags say 4.5 inches for -ALL- of the African cichlids.

Are you saying 75 gallon tank minimum for cichlids?

Well it is better to not try and change water hardness. I have done it sucessfully with Cichlid salts and have also used baking soda to harden water. To soften water peat in your filter would work.

Ahli are less aggressive compared to the others. Put them in a tank with Kenyi and Auratus and see what happens, I assure they will be owned. Now that being said Ahli, at least the ones I have kept need a large tank, if I remember they can get like 9 inches and don't get along with their own kind real well.

Angels ARE Cichlids but not suitable with larger more aggressive species..... 4.5 inches for most the species you keep there is a fair guideline of adult size. The reason I say 75g Minimum for said Africans is because of grouping requirements, breeding and aggression. If you put two Mbuna in a 20g or 3 you would have just one sooner than later. Unless they were peaceful. Most of the African Cichlids Petsmart, Petco etc sell are some of the MOST Aggressive species. With any Cichlid IMO the bigger tank you can provide the better also it gives the fish more territory which Cichlids spend their whole life fighting for.

Wow, even with that size difference, the Ahli would be owned? That's interesting.

So...don't change water hardness unless you know what you're doing....Will the Africans be ok in hard water then? When I use test strips, the hardness in this area is always 200-300.

I wonder why chain stores sell some of the more aggressive ones. So, is it not wise to, for example, get one each of four different kinds of cichlids to put in a tank?

That water is perfect for most of what you are selling....The African Rift Lake Cichlids do best in harder water. Chains typically these cause of color and popularity also they are very common and easy to get species.

For cichlid tanks, would you recommend treating the water with Ph 8.0? Or are there better ways to raise the Ph?

Those products don't really work that well and can get expensive...To be honest unless they are wild caught or rare fish I wouldn't mess with the chemistry too much...There are better ways like substrate to buffer water. Some I can think of are Eco-Complete which is good because it is minerologically complete. Next is crushed coral which will also work well, both products contain Aragonite which will help maintain a high ph.

So...even though they do better in higher PH and with harder water, just leave those alone unless you know what you're doing?

African cicchlids are one of the most hardy fish in freshwater. They can tolerate alot. In my experience lake Malawi are the most aggresive and the africans from lake Tanganyika the least aggreesive.

MC i would disagree on the electric yellow. Every one i had was a mean bad sob!!!!I do agree no chemicals!!!!! substrate and salt for disease prevention and constant temps.

I have kept many africans together that people said dont. Heck iv'e even kept shellies from Tanganyika with Red Empress's from Malawi. But in general as a rule of thumb you should keep cichlids of the same species type like pseudotropheus, juliodichromis, neolamprologus,alunocara etc... together and you wont have to much of a problem,oh and keep the right ratio of male to female.

We have alot of species profiles in the profile section if you wanna learn about the africans.The profiles have ratios, tank size,all the goodies in it.I personnally got away from the Malawi cichlids because of their aggression. Now i only have fish from lake Tanganyika because they are way less aggresive.

I have a question for you 1beataway do you have any fish?

No cichlids. I have a 10 gallon with a female betta and 3 white clouds, though I'm thinking of increasing that to 5. I also have two snails. For me, the idea of keeping fish is a new idea, because I do so much work at my job that I don't want to come home and do the same thing. I live in a tiny apartment, so 10 gallons was all I could do, but I have an idea or two for much larger tanks when I move and settle.

That's cool that you have fish no matter what kind!!!! They are the most relaxing thing in the world when your stressed out!!!

There was a point where I felt bad about giving customers all this information and advice when I was finding out some of it was wrong and when I had never had a fish tank.

You didn't know the information then and was only told by an unreliable person what's what.

Thats why she is here learning SBL...she works in a pet store and is looking for answers and is trying to learn everything she can so she can continue to educate.

I know the story MC. I was just saying. Just cause I'm only 13 doesn't mean you have to point things out.

I have this really nice older customer who had a freshwater community tank, and they all eventually died (she had it for years) and she wanted to change over to the African cichlids because she has always liked the way they look. She knew they were aggressive, but she wanted to try.

She has a 40 or 50 gallon. I've been helping her decide. Now I wish I had some of this information when she started. I would feel horrid if I told her something wrong. She's been getting 1 each of a few different fish...is this ok? Let's see...I know she has a bumblebee, and either a Kenyi or Aurustus (or however you spell it), an Ice Blue...I'm not sure what else. She wants bright colors. She really wants a bright blue one but none that we have in the store are as bright as she wants. A lot of ours are small though.

I'm not sure if I have already asked this yet or not...Some people have said they have had luck with cichlids and kissing gouramis. I wouldn't think they would mix. Opinion? What about large bala sharks and cichlids?

Has anyone noticed if jack dempsey's get really aggressive with much smaller dempsey's? It just seems in the tanks at work, I have -never- seen one pick on a smaller one, and we don't usually have them at a similar size.

SBL wrote:

I know the story MC. I was just saying. Just cause I'm only 13 doesn't mean you have to point things out.

Relax dude, I wasn't picking on ya...I like you, I wasn't sure about your posts meaning.....sorry if I offended ya it was an accident!!!!

1beataway wrote:

I have this really nice older customer who had a freshwater community tank, and they all eventually died (she had it for years) and she wanted to change over to the African cichlids because she has always liked the way they look. She knew they were aggressive, but she wanted to try.

She has a 40 or 50 gallon. I've been helping her decide. Now I wish I had some of this information when she started. I would feel horrid if I told her something wrong. She's been getting 1 each of a few different fish...is this ok? Let's see...I know she has a bumblebee, and either a Kenyi or Aurustus (or however you spell it), an Ice Blue...I'm not sure what else. She wants bright colors. She really wants a bright blue one but none that we have in the store are as bright as she wants. A lot of ours are small though.

I'm not sure if I have already asked this yet or not...Some people have said they have had luck with cichlids and kissing gouramis. I wouldn't think they would mix. Opinion? What about large bala sharks and cichlids?

Has anyone noticed if jack dempsey's get really aggressive with much smaller dempsey's? It just seems in the tanks at work, I have -never- seen one pick on a smaller one, and we don't usually have them at a similar size.

I wouldnt mix African Mbuna with gouramis....bala sharks maybe but only if the tank is large enough. I think she will be ok with a mixed tank, just make sure she has lots of rock work and hiding spots and has a large stock too little and they will pick on each other. Also Jack Dempsey's are ok with smaller Dempseys as long as they are close in size....IMO they are very lazy and arent as aggressive as some tend to believe.

I didn't mean to post it in an offended way. I just was saying. I have no experience in Africans so I have nothing to input