dirtydawg10 wrote:

Female cichlids do not get "pregnant". They spawn and taking the females out would not help because the eggs would need to be fertilized by a male after the female drops them...

i figured she new about the love dance and fertilizing and mouthbrooding and such since she is going with mubunas but i should have clarified!of course female africans dont give live birth they are mouth brooders and egg layers depending on the species.i figured you would get that from the research you did on the fish you wanted to buy.the female mouth brooders lay the eggs and the male fertilizies them and the female picks them up and constantly keeps them moving in her mouth.they do this in a circular dance if you will on a piece of slate or rock they have selected.there are many videos on this if your interested on seeing it. again sorry i was not totally clear about the pregnant part!!!

dirtydawg10 wrote:

The females drop the eggs and the male usually follows behind and fertilizes them. Then the female scoops them up in her mouth. I guess the female could be removed while they are holding.

i remove my females after she holds for 2 days and then depending on the species it takes 15 to 30 days for her to release them during which time she will not eat so dont be alarmed either. then after she spits them out let her eat and stay with the frey for atleast 3 days before you reintroduce her into her originall tank!!!

detroitfish wrote:

dirtydawg10 wrote:

Female cichlids do not get "pregnant". They spawn and taking the females out would not help because the eggs would need to be fertilized by a male after the female drops them...

i figured she new about the love dance and fertilizing and mouthbrooding and such since she is going with mubunas but i should have clarified!of course female africans dont give live birth they are mouth brooders and egg layers depending on the species.i figured you would get that from the research you did on the fish you wanted to buy.the female mouth brooders lay the eggs and the male fertilizies them and the female picks them up and constantly keeps them moving in her mouth.they do this in a circular dance if you will on a piece of slate or rock they have selected.there are many videos on this if your interested on seeing it. again sorry i was not totally clear about the pregnant part!!!

detroitfish wrote:

dirtydawg10 wrote:

The females drop the eggs and the male usually follows behind and fertilizes them. Then the female scoops them up in her mouth. I guess the female could be removed while they are holding.

i remove my females after she holds for 2 days and then depending on the species it takes 15 to 30 days for her to release them during which time she will not eat so dont be alarmed either. then after she spits them out let her eat and stay with the frey for atleast 3 days before you reintroduce her into her originall tank!!!

OK...so we are on the same page here. You just had me a bit confused with your choice of words, is all. No worries...I just wanted to clarify for future readers.

Just caught up on this thread. Interesting observations, detroitfish, conflicting with mine. Have to say I can't totally agree with ya. Kept and bred my share of mbuna myself in 26 years, and never have had any hybridization in mixed tanks with ratios of 1:3 to 2:7 for males to females. Never had any hybridization at all, for that matter. For fish I was lookin' to get rid of I kept one species per tank, but mainly 'cuz it was easier to catch the females and/or strip the fry in smaller species tanks.

I agree mbuna will hybridize with closely related species. Think 90% is a little steep and don’t think anyone can support that using the published literature on the topic in scientific journals. In fact, I’m familiar enough with the literature that I’m comfortable saying that I’m 99% sure NOBODY can support that from the literature. I will stipulate that some hybridization occurs naturally within Lake Malawi itself. However, all mbuna will not hybridize with all other species of mbuna. The farther apart two species are the less likely they will be to hybridize. Hybridization usually occurs due to a lack of same species males for females to choose from (mating in mbuna is usually female driven) and/or the inability of males of that species to establish a territory. One male per tank does not provide any incentive for that lone male to display full dominant colorations and behaviors, and in a multi-species, crowded tank, that lone male may find it difficult to establish a territory. If you add a female or two to a too small all-male tank, then yes I agree it will increase aggression as the males vie for her attention. However, IME in a tank with a minimum ration of 1 male:3 females (I prefer 2:7 myself) per species, aggression will be dispersed and non-problematic, and hybridization will be very unlikely to occur. Both genders in mbuna rely on visual, olfactory and behavioral clues when choosing/displaying for mates, thus reducing the chance of hybridization even further. The farther apart two species are the less likely they are to exhibit similar breeding signals. In other words, a female Metriaclima sp. may very well crossbreed with a male of a closely-related Metriaclima sp. in the absence of same-species males, but the odds of hybridization will be vastly reduced if the male is changed to a Pseudotropheus sp., are very low if the male is a Melanochromis sp., and will be virtually nil if the male is a Labidochromis sp.

From a purely biological standpoint, each gender of mbuna will show preference for mates of the same species. As I said, certain visual, olfactory and behavioral signals are preferred by both genders. These signals are species specific (though they may be very similar in closely related species), are instinctual (not learned), and do not change in aquaria. If such was not the case, Lake Malawi would not have the vast number of species it does; there would only be a handful of species of mbuna widespread across the lake. Even within a species, both genders will show preference to mates of the same population (if present) over mates from another population, and this tendency is what allowed sympatric speciation to proceed rapidly in the lake, giving us the wide variety of species we all know and love today. Here is a short list of papers addressing the subject of speciation, hybridization, and mate preference and recognition in Lake Malawi mbuna:

Evolution of the mitochondrial DNA control region in the mbuna (Cichlidae) species flock of lake Malawi, East Africa; Journal of Molecular Evolution; Parker, Alex and Kornfield, Irv; 1997.

Laboratory mating trials indicate incipient speciation by sexual selection among populations of the cichlid fish Pseudotropheus zebra from Lake Malawi; Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences; Knight, Mairi E and Turner, George F; 2004.

The mbuna cichlids of Lake Malawi: a model for rapid speciation and adaptive radiation; Fish and Fisheries; Genner, Martin J and Turner, George F; 2005.

Does the time spent near a male predict female mate choice in a Malawian cichlid?; Journal of Fish Biology; Coulridge, Vanessa and Alexander, G J; 2001.

Color patterns and species recognition in four closely related species of Lake Malawi cichlid; Behavioral Ecology; Coulridge, Vanessa and Alexander, G J; 2002.

Female preference for conspecific males based on olfactory cues in a Lake Malawi cichlid fish; Biology Letters; Plenderleith, Martin, et al; 2005.

If ya can get a hold of any of these, they are excellent reading and will give even the most experienced breeder a better insight on what drives breeding in mbuna. To paraphrase what will be found in the last three papers, the vast majority of the time a female will not mate with a male of a different species in the presence of males of her own, both in aquarium settings and in nature.

If hybridization is occurring in a tank, than there are fundamental flaws in the tank set-up (too small of a tank and not enough room for males to establish territories), stocking density (too many in a tank and inadequate gender ratios), and in the species choices (the species are too closely related). I’ve said it before and will say it again, that the tendency for mbuna to hybridize is grossly exaggerated in aquarium circles and is a result of poor husbandry techniques rather than any innate proclivity for mbuna to hybridize.


I would like to clarify that crossbreeding of two color morphs of a species is NOT hybridization; hybridization applies only to the mating of two distinct species. This misconception is one I have come across many times in discussion of that subject. Not implying that you don’t know the difference, just flagging the point.

On a personal note, I believe that a thorough phylogenetic analysis of a large number of Malawi mbuna may actually reduce the number of species rather than increase the species count. Having read the basis of species designation for numerous recently described species, I find that the results are less than convincing. Some of the descriptions are based on comparative anatomy rather than mtDNA analysis, and the differences used are less pronounced than in races of Homo sapiens. IMO the “species” described warrants no more than subspecies status. Please note, while I can support anything I’ve stated prior to this paragraph with my own experience and the literature, I can only provide circumstantial support for the view in this paragraph.


WYite

I too in my 15 years of fish keeping have had many mixed African tanks and have never had once had hybridization. I have read quite a few of the references posted by Wyite as well...I just wish I could of said it as well as he did...A good generalization Ivan!

Wow that was a good read Ivan, I had no idea how hard it was to have hybridization in a mixed tank.

Since we're all throwing out numbers, in my 43 years of fish keeping (Africans for 33 years) , I have seen numerous African Cichlids hybridize under aquarium conditions, however, all the ones I've seen occurred when a male had no females of his own species in the tank, while females of other species were present. The exception to this rule are the Peacocks. The females of all the Peacock species are so similar in appearance, males will breed with the nearest female. Detroit is correct in that if a female is introduced to an all male tank, war is imminent, however, when kept in breeding groups in a community setting, I have found, inter-specific aggression is usually minimal.

While the word hybrid really should be used for inter-specific (or greater) breeding, in the case of Malawi's, where individual races are used to define the way a fish is supposed to look, [ie. Cynotilapia afra (Chewere), (Cobue), (Likoma), and about 15 other recognized races], I can certainly understand its usage.

Mark

Markm0723 wrote:

Since we're all throwing out numbers, in my 43 years of fish keeping (Africans for 33 years) , I have seen numerous African Cichlids hybridize under aquarium conditions, however, all the ones I've seen occurred when a male had no females of his own species in the tank, while females of other species were present.

I'm not saying it doesn't occur, Mark, merely pointing out that the likelihood is slim if ya maintain mbuna in breeding groups. Do ya remember what species were involved, and if there were any conspecific males for the females to breed with?

Markm0723 wrote:

The exception to this rule are the Peacocks. The females of all the Peacock species are so similar in appearance, males will breed with the nearest female.

I have very little experience with peacocks, though that definitely makes sense. I was referring mainly to mbuna, not haps or peacocks. Peacocks never have interested me much.

Markm0723 wrote:

Detroit is correct in that if a female is introduced to an all male tank, war is imminent, however, when kept in breeding groups in a community setting, I have found, inter-specific aggression is usually minimal.

Agreed on both counts, and stated so in my post.

Markm0723 wrote:

While the word hybrid really should be used for inter-specific (or greater) breeding, in the case of Malawi's, where individual races are used to define the way a fish is supposed to look, [ie. Cynotilapia afra (Chewere), (Cobue), (Likoma), and about 15 other recognized races], I can certainly understand its usage.

LOL, I understand the use in that context as well, and I believe individual races should be maintained separately to ensure genetic uniqueness. Just a note so everyone was on the same page in this discussion, as I have met people who insisted that individual races were "species".

WYite

What a great debate, I love it!

i to have read them most not all . i just spoke from my experiences not from literature after all i thought that is what she wanted was our experiences .and as i said from my experiences no matter the ratio, setup or tank size hybridization did occur!

WOW....what a read I came back to, I think my head is spinning

I just wanted to update and say they did not make it today.

I take in consideration ALL thoughts and experiences, and I apprechiate everything from everyone. I know hypirds can happen, I understand they can happen and honestly if they do, well it wont bother me in any way....I just don't want to put species together that are going to kill each other. If they "love" each other a little more then planned....well at least they aren't ripping each other apart.

Thank you for all the thought put into that post Wyoming....it was a very nice read and very insightful.

Detroit, I really do also like the fact you added your thoughts and experiences as well. I'm really not sure I"m dead set on the zebras really....I still may go with the rusties. I am just pretty much weighing my options with the fish I like most (for my set up).

Thanks everyone, and please don't start a huge thing over my post....ya know I love ya'll and like hearing EVERYONES opinions.

That is great LG and that is why we have FWM!

very true mc.and lg all i can do is give you my experiences with them like you asked for hope it helped you out dear !

WOOOO-WHOOOOO.....they came today!!! They guy had them packaged wonderfully! They are so flipping CUTE!!!!!

PICS!

Nice!! Did you get a camera yet...

cant wait to see them!congrats

Pictures, pictures,pictures...

Mark

Sweet, LG glad to hear the experience was good this time can't wait to see them.

Sorry guys....had a couple things come up and ended up not able to get a camera yet I'm sure my mom would let me use hers again and I'll get some pics up soon.

OMG, this guy was such a good shipper and they look so healthy, I am sooooo happy I went with him. Each fish had their own bag, they were upright, and full!! I would recomend him to anyone!!!!

Carolinacichlid was his SN.

always nice to know a good shipper with good fish !thanks for the heads up lg

What they said!