I've got an larger red devil here, that's acting very strange and I'm trying to figure out just what exactly is causing it.

The RD is a large male. He got brought in a while back for a tumor on it's bottom lip, and a nasty fungus that was extremely hard to get rid of. While he was being treated, he was in a 25g hospital tank. It took nearly three months to finally stamp out the fungus plaguing him, and when it was finally over he became a fairly active and happy fish.

So, I decided a month ago to move him into a 75 alone. For most of the month he hid in the corner, or hid behind the prefilter in the tank. He was never active, he never did much but hide. I got a few other fish dropped off that needed a tank, so I decided to move the hiding RD back into the 25, figuring if he was just going to hide in the corner, he could do it in a smaller tank.

An hour or so after dropping him back in the 25 he went from hiding back to totally active and has been that way since. I checked the water in both tanks, everything is near the same as far as parameters and temps go, the only major difference is the hospital tank is both near a sunny window, and in an area where the kids run around.

Would the RD prefer the more active area with the kids running around and stuff going on? Is it the sun? I don't know how he was kept before he came here but could he be accustomed to a smaller tank and be somehow uncomfortable with a larger tank? On the one hand, I feel a bit dickly keeping such a large fish in a too small tank, but he seems so much happier in there that I'm reluctant to change things on him again and just let him keep the 25.

My RD does the same freakin' thing, and it's funny you should post it cuz lately I've been thinkin' 'bout posting it here as well, though a little more broadly.

First, mine 's 'bout 2 years and 9" and the meanest bastard I've ever had for a fish. He was active as long as there was something in with him, until I removed it 'cuz he was gonna kill it. He's been in a 75 for the past year, alone, and all he does is hide. That's all he did in the 55 he was in before that. Coupla weeks ago I put him back in a 55 with kinda the same thoughts you had, he can hide just as well in a smaller tank. Within a coupla days he'd undermined the rockwork horribly and I needed to install the new filter and steady the rocks, and since I can never keep him from under anything, figured he'd be safer in a 29 for a coupla hours. He went crazy, loved it.

Well, he's back in the 55, and hiding again, but I'm wondering the same thing as you. WTF? What's going on?

Which bring's me to an observation I've made the last two years. My big, bruiser CA cichlids do not act like the big bruiser CA cichlids I kept 20 years ago. Well, sort of. It appears to be species-specific. I actually started thinkin' 'bout this a while back when you were talkin' 'bout your gentle schooling jags in chat and my jag was acting so mellow. The redhead and blackbelt are doin' just what I'd expect: eat well, defend their turf, relatively tolerant of similar size fishes as long as they all respect the pecking order. On the other hand, the RD is extremely aggressive, no, murderous even, beyond anything I've ever seen even in aggressive species, and shy/reclusive when in a tank by himself. The jack dempsey does nothing but hide, and he's topped out at 7". The three 5" firemouths, 6" salvini and 5" redhead squabble for rule of a 90 gallon tank; no self respecting JD I had in the past woulda allowed that. The jag did nothing but hide before he passed on, could hardly get him to eat. They are so reclusive I have a hard time getting any of them to eat. I never had a hard time getting these species to eat in the past, and they were always at the front of the tank. I can't even get these guys to take feeder guppies or young cons. Water parameters are excellent, and other species in the same tanks are thriving.

I'm beginning to wonder about in-breeding for the changes in behavior and health, at least within animals being provided by certain breeders. The three species I've observed this behavior in are all mainstays in the hobby, available at every LFS and every Petco and Petsmart I've been in the past two years. Half the time JDs show up at Wally World. While these guys are acting outside my experiences, my salvini grew to 5 1/2" in 6 months and my blackbelt and redhead have grown 2" in a month. The firemouths, GTs and the Amphilophus you sent all are growing and acting the way I'd expect. The cons are great, providing me feeders at a rate that I can barely keep up with; but then again, cons may be the most genetically elastic species in the world. All of these are always at the front of the tank waiting to be fed. Now THAT is what I'm talking about with CA cichlids, the way they SHOULD be...

So, RDs, JDs and jags are all widely available from domestic stock. All have been the subject of breeding programs to achieve "desired traits": gold gene, electric blue and ballooning in JDs, consistent red color and mottling in RDs, and gold morph in jags. With the ease these species breed in captivity, I suspect the influx of wild stock/wild genetic material is likely isolated and rare. Gets me wonderin' if a lotta the stuff ending up on the market has been relegated to the offspring of subpar genetic stock that was culled and then used to breed for sale in pet shops, sort of a "puppy-mill" effect.

WYite

That's another thing that I didn't think to mention as I though it was normal for the species. This male is also completely violently homicidal. I originally tried him in with a Flowerhorn, and the RD went full medieval on her. Over the span of hour or so, the FH had actual bruises on her side, and chunks taken out of the fins.

The 25 is set up on an old reinforced coffee table so the kids can color on it or whatever, and I was watching today my 3yr old "playing" with the RD. He would run his hand around the outside front of the tank while the RD would pound on the glass where his hand was. So I thought in his case that it was the activity going on around the tank that made that location appealing.

I'm not sure what to make of it now, especially if yours liked a smaller tank too. Your "puppy-mill" theory makes a lot of sense though. Generation after generation of RD being bred in close quarters, as well as significant inbreeding if people are going after those specific traits are bound to cause some issues.

I'm thankfully not having the problems you did with the last Jag left here, but I swear in a past life she was a koi. She begs for pellets with the sliders just like the koi do, she'll eat them out of my hand with no problems and will swim happily around just fine with the sliders. They've bashed into her, when they're all begging for food and she just moves over to another spot. The older books I have with info about jags in them make it sound like if something like that happened she should be making everyone in the tank her bitch. She does have a golden tint to her too. I never knew that was a specifically sought after trait.

All the JDs I've ever had here act exactly as you describe as well, but I've only ever kept JDs either alone or with the pacu, and really, what's a 7 inch JD going to do to a three foot pacu.

The last jag I had in the early nineties would take after my hand when I was cleaning the tank, would try to go through the tank to get to me when I walked by, and actually tried and almost succeeded to pull one of my cats into the tank when I left the lid up one morning. My oldest daughter's mom hated that fish, she thought it was evil. I never would have tried to hand feed him like that, 'cuz he'd have tried to take my fingers, and a 12" jag has a pretty nasty bite.

The RDs I had were aggressive, but wouldn't harass other fish to the extent this one does. That mellow jag was twice his size, and I had to move the jag. Jags that size I had in the past woulda sent him packin' to his side of the tank. They woulda locked lips, bashed each other a few times and then went about their merry ways once dominance was established, with the subdominant fish giving ground. And in the RDs I had in the past, if the RD was the victor, he would assert his dominance but wouldn't outright attack a fish like that until it was dead or had to be removed. I don't know, 'tis all strange to me. I just know that with these three species, none of 'em act the way the ones I had in the past did...

WYite

On the one hand I'd be interested to see how WC jags or RDs from somebody like Rapps behave, but on the other hand, I have no where I could keep anything like you described. From everything I've read and heard on the species I know the jag is somehow wrong, but I wouldn't have anywhere to keep her if she wasn't.

Truth be told, while the RD frustrates me as far as where and how I can keep him, I've gotten rather fond of the Jag. Not that much of a surprise though if you're expecting a raging douchebag and end up with happy friendly.

Over the years I have kept a few Red Devils, all with similar Character. The last one I had about two, three years ago had a bad temper. Had put him in my 125g with the Jag and I can't remember what else. Well in about two days he owned half of the tank. I would say he was about 9-10 inches at the time with similar size fish. I ended up putting him in my 75g alone except for a few fast giant Dianos. This guy was just as active an personable in both tanks, in fact became more aggressive alone and in a smaller tank, he would beg for food and bite the crap out of me every time I put my hand in the tank. Anyway no real personality change with or without tank mates, bigger or smaller tank.

My most recent experience, in the last year is similar. I have had this guy in the 75g and now the 120g, this one particular RD is a lot more mild tempered compared to the other one I was keeping. I have always had him in with tank mates (currently two Jags and some others, JD's) Anyway no hiding etc...etc..don't bother anyone too much in fact gets a beat down from the texas half his size...no real harm is done though.

On to the jags and Jacks! I have had my female jag about 6 years or so she has been in with all of my fish. I found she really did best in with my male who I have had almost two years now. Anyway I have never had either jag show an over powering amount of aggression. I think jags aggression is over rated. The Jacks I have kept are just docile, an sometimes lazy. They can be aggressive but most of the time tend to stay out of trouble.

Now my opinion is that larger Cichlids do really well in slightly overstocked tanks. Not only does it spread aggression around but they seem to be more puppy dog like. Now yes you will hear splashing around at night or a big splash every now and then but they are Cichlids. Now don't try this unless you are ready to spend a lot of time changing water and cleaning filters but this is my experience.

OK, so most "true" RD's are going to be mean as hell...I think maybe in addition to them being bred in cramped quarters they are being cross bred with Midas too much so you have to ask yourself "do I have a TRUE Rd" or a mutt. I feel that the midas side of things are a little more passive and docile than the RD side....On a Jag note, I think it is going to be dependant on species and quality. All in all the smaller you get them IMO and what you keep them with really makes a difference in personality and temper.

My experience with slightly crowding large, aggressive cichlids is the same as yours, MC, it works if you're willing to do the maintenance. The one 90 has the JD, the blackbelt, the redhead, the six Amphilophus I got from saint, the three firemouths and a salvini. I'm going to hafta split it up sooner or later, I know, 'cuz that
is too much fish for that tank fully grown. Need to choose which male firemouth to try with the female first since she won't choose and get them into their own tank, gonna find homes for four of the Amphilophus as soon as I'm 100% sure they are A. zaliosus, and I'm figurin' the redhead for the 225 when he gets a bit larger. In the meantime, it's working well for growing out the redhead, blackbelt and the Amphilophus.

I agree RDs are bastards, but IME they tone down with other fish that can hold their own. Like I said, they all sort out the pecking order and go on their merry way, just like you're seeing with the RD, jags and Texas in your 125. They know where they fit in the pecking order and know when they're outclassed. And when alone, they'd flare their gills, display at the front of the tank or at the fish in the tank next to them, and generally act like they are the king of the world. But this one is something else, MC, I'm tellin ya, when it comes to other fish. Never seen anything like it, even from RDs. And all he does is hide when alone. Even ignores the fish in the next tank.

I've always felt JDs had a bad rap, never thought they were anywhere near as aggressive as they are usually advertised. Then again, they'd still hold their place in the tank if another fish bugged 'em. This one turns tail when the meekest 3" amphie in that 90 swims by him. Merely swims by. And at app. 7", maybe slightly smaller, he's done growing. Ya can see it lookin' at him. He was done growing at 4 months. He grew like crazy and then just stopped. Thats not normal for a male JD, MC. I've never seen a 12" monster like the old literature says they can reach, but a healthy male JD should easily make 8 1/2" or a bit more. I kept plenty of JDs before I got into Africans. Would take 'em off peoples hands when they couldn't keep them, keep 'em 'til I got bored with 'em, and turn around and find homes for 'em. I've looked at my husbandry practices, looked at diet, everything. Everything else just keeps growing. I look at the JDs at the stores I go to, and they just don't look right. They're puny, listless. Seriously, my gut feeling is there is something going on there, something not quite right with 90% of the JDs I've seen offered.

Jags are individuals in my experience. The "devil" jag, LOL, was an extreme case, I'll admit. But here again, the jags I've seen offered aren't quite right. The jags I kept then were more along the lines of RDs in temperament. Everything I've seen today act more like guppies.

The biggest thing that bugs me is the problems with feeding. All three species should have good, solid appetites that will eat anything that is edible and will fit in their mouths, and then some. The JD and RD eat like birds, and the jag did as well. The jag died from malnutrition. Everything else eats like crazy. I mix it up: freeze dried foods; frozen foods; flakes, pellets and sticks in 3 or 4 brands each; algae wafers in two brands. Plus snails, worms (yuck) and baby or juvie convicts now that the feeder factory is in full production. Garlic stimulation gets everything else going crazy. Doesn't excite the JD or RD one bit, nor did it the jag. It's not right.

I'm sure somebody will read this and chock it up to distorted memories of the "good ol' days". Okay, fine. I've done it myself. The more I examine this though, I become more and more convinced that there is something else. If it's distorted memories, why do the less commonly offered species I've acquired behave, grow and eat the same way as I expect and remember? And after chatting with saint and thinking about some of the experiences he's had with some of the fish he's had donated and rescued, I'm wondering about the stock being offered for sale. Especially stock being provided by large-scale breeders to chains and large retailers. My two cents, I'll stop ranting now...

WYite