Hallo.

I'm coming here to see if you've got any advise on treating ich, I can't seem to get rid of it. I've got a 180L tank with some (4, maybe 13" total) fancy goldfish. I first noticed it, must have been from a new arrival (quarantined but showed no symptoms maybe due to the coldwater?) over a month ago.

I've always used heat and salt so first treatment was temp from 70F to 77F + 2tbs salt per 5L spread out over 2/3 days. After a week I had it spread quite badly - I did a couple of large water changes and switched to a higher heat, 86F + Malachite green, quinine sulphate based medication, dosing every 48h. After two weeks of this I'd had no viable spots for several days, believed it gone but stopping treatment had it return.

Believing it maybe due to some hiding in the gravel bed/plants/or cold spots I stripped a majority of the tank down at this point. Nearly all the gravel. Large daily water changes over two days. Doubled the heaters, added two extra filters for moving the water around. Kept the tank at 86F and continued treating for another two weeks with the same medication. I had come back again.

This time I switched to another medication recommended to me. Malachite green, Ethacrindine lactate and Methylene blue based. This was a daily treatment promising complete cure in 3 days (sceptical due to the lifecycle of Ich but hey ho, it has different ingredients). I treated with this for a total of 10 days. Feeling uneasy about the possible accumulative effects of the medication and the heat I decided to drop the heat back down to the usual 70F and continue treating only another 2 or 3 days to be sure. The day after lowering the temperature I had new spots appear.

At this point I'm getting worried about breeding some kind of super ich. I did a large 80% water change. Raise the temp to 90F, add a mild dose of salt (1tbs per 5L) and continued with the medication. I emailed the manufacturer who told me water conditioner was to blame, specifically anything containing sulphites.

I've had these poor goldies at a toasty 90F for about 6 days now. I've had new spots appearing during this time, but its very limited. I hope to keep this up 10-14 days tops but I'm now not so sure. I believe the lifecycle is complete within 10 days, if it works at all at this temperature but with new spots I'm not sure what to get on with. Hope I get no new spots after a while and just keep it hot for a couple of weeks past that?

Any advise? I don't want to lose these fish, some are Japanese import Ranchu.

Heat alone will kill ICH if indeed it is ICH. Keep the tank at 85-86 degrees for two weeks, should take are of it. Look at our articles section there is a ICH article or two there that might help. Welcome to FWM by the way.

There are plenty of people on the internet saying they've had Ich survive higher than usual temperatures but who knows. I initially put it down to cold spots/deep gravel bed but I've done everything I can to remove that factor from the equation.

I've not got any concrete information on the length of lifecycle at this temperature. I'm concerned that basing treatment on the usual tropical temperature of say 10-14 days, of 5 days on the fish, 2-3 days off the fish, 48hr free swimming means that seeing new spots 6 days in, means I'm looking at the result of an infection started a day or two previously, meaning I've got another 9 days of this, meaning that 'two weeks of 86F-90F is a dead cert' might not apply in this case.

Well the high temps wont persay kill the ich but it will speed up the lifecycle. Have you considered giving the fish a formalin bath or a salt bath? This wont kill the disease possible in the tank but will be highly effective at killing thew ich in the fish. You may also consider reading the ich article here it was written by a couple of folks over at the University of Florida. Personally I have used the salt heat many times with great results. You may just need something stronger. Formalin is probabally the last resort but I guarantee it will wipe out any ich you may have.

2 teaspoons of salt per 1 gallon of water is what I usually use as a rule of thumb. Put the water temp up to 85 or 86 and keep this temp and salt up until 1 to 2 weeks after the last visible sign of ich on the fish. 1 week should be enough but with a bad case such as this the ich may be hiding on the fish in places you can't see, like in the gills. The heat is to speed up the lifecycle of the ich and the salt will kill the ich.

Both you guys beat me to it, but yea, What MC and D said about salt and heat usually works.

That being said, I've seen one or two exceptionally nasty cases of Ich that I've used formalin on it with good results. The most important thing is to pay attention to the directions and measure exactly. Formalin is hardcore stuff, 100% formalin is either 40 or 45% formaldehyde so be careful with it.

Well, I'm still seeing new spots. Only a couple here and there and only one one fish, he seems to have a hard time ridding his wen from it? This is at 90F too

Yesterday I bumped the salt dose. Maybe at 1.5-2tsp per 5L now.

You might want to try bumping it to 2.5ish tbs per 5L.

1 gallon is 128 ounces.
5L is 170 ounces.

The ich may be a higher heat tolerant variety, and is hanging on because there's not enough salt to get rid of it in the free swiming stage.

86F is usually sufficient to kill off ich, I wouldn't keep goldies much higher.

I'm not sure where you're located, (it's been my experience that people who talk in L aren't in the US) but if the extra salt doesn't help I've heard good things about Kordon's Rid-Ich+

I'm in the UK. We've got access to a bunch of medications but they are all based on combinations of malachite green and then pick two from, methylene blue, aquaflavine, ethacridine lactate, formaldehyde or quinine sulphate. As a result I tend to view them as one and the same TBH, the only variety other than content is in the treatment regime.

I hear you with the salt. I did try this first of all but maybe I needed to push a little more, I stopped with the salt because it didn't seem to be helping at all at 2tbs/L.

I've got another medication which is just formaldehyde and dye. I've used it in the past and it seems lethal, leaving fish looking beaten up/wounded. I'm very wary to use that on these fish except as a true last resort.

So far as the temperature goes, I'm not really happy about it being so high (89F) but I don't think it'll kill them just yet.



That chart is taken from - http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jtherbio.2004.09.004 - broken line is high, solid is low.

Basically the researcher acclimatised batches of goldfish at 5, 10, 15, 20 & 25 degrees C for 20 days. Then increased the temperature for each group fairly rapidly. All fish eventually went belly up, at 0.3C low and 43.6C high but first to go went at 12.6C and 30.8C. Acclimation was responsible for over 90% of the variance meaning that a change of 11.52C would be enough to kill a goldfish but if the goldfish is used to having it warm then it'll accept a much higher heat. Seeing as I've been keeping them at roughly 25C+ for over a month, based on research I'd expect them to be safe upto 34C or 93.2F.

I am noticing things like slightly white tipped/maybe decaying fins though, I don't want them at this for any longer than necessary.

86F will stress ich. 87F will prevent it multiplying. 88F is supposed to kill it. From - http://www.desertfishes.org/proceed/1992/24abs46.html - they did a pretty reasonable study of it. This is why I've got them at 89F. I don't want to mess around and risk leaving it any more resistant. BUT I'm not really getting rid of it.

Each time I've gotten rid of it, I've a black Ranchu who doesn't seem to be able to totally lose it from the thickest, forward most ray of his pectoral fins. I've put it down to wound/healing each time, but it seems concerning, he doesn't seem to shake them from there. Is it possible for it to deeply infect a solid bodypart like that?

Actually. It is only this fat little pig black ranchu who ever really has it stubbornly. Two have only had a touch for a day or two and another has had a little here and there but he consistently has it the worst.

Anyone have anything further to add? I'm now 11 days into this 89/90F treatment cycle and I'm still seeing a couple of spots on the leading edge of that black ranchu's fins?

Sorry, Christmas and all that keeping me busy..

Two things I can think of, one would be some sort of bacterial infection, the other would be a fungal infection.

Can you get either some pics or be more descriptive on the patches? Is it fuzzy at all?

Very hard to snap these fish, especially black/black painted background.

Lets try -



Which isn't the Ranchu, but a Black Moor from a few days ago.

Today I carried out a 15% water change and gravel vac, squeezed a couple of the filters, stirred up the moss and plants a little and bumped the salt a bit. Maybe at 2.5tbs now.

No fuzz etc. It looks like whitespot I've encountered in the past. I'm back treating with a malachite green/quinine sulphate cure, states to dose every 48 hours compared to the previous product which was daily, I'm tempted to treat maybe half the 48 hour dose daily? Any advise on this?

I understand it is touch to be patient but it seems like you are all over the place with your treatments right now. Even seems like you are trying more then one treatment at the same time. Pick one and stick with it for the recommended amount of time. You may be keeping the ich because you're not sticking to the same treatment for the desired amount of time. For a bad case of ich, 11 days is not enough to rid your tank of it. Stick with your treatment. Bumping up the salt level is not a bad idea though. Seems like you have already done that though.

I understand. It might seem that way but I've been treating this since late october. I'll recap.

1st sign. Large water change. 2tbs/5L salt + 86F

Continued this for 5 days but became concerned at the very rapid spread and development of visible spots. Didn't want to wait for it to complete another lifecycle and completely cover the fish so switched to...

Large water change and vac. Malachite green/quinine cure, 86F

Continued this, dosing as directed every 48hr for 14 days with no water changes. All signs were gone around day 9-10. My first move after the two weeks was to drop the temperature and perform a water change. It returned so I...

Cleared much of the tank. Removed nearly all the plants and gravel bed. Did tests for ammonia/nitrite for 2 days while carrying out water changes (concerned about removing bacteria with gravel) and continued with the same cure + 86F heat.

After 11 days of this I had to discontinue the treatment due to what looked like nitrite poisoning. All signs were clear at this point. It returned.

I took advise and had a product recommended which I had imported from from the netherlands. It promised 3-5 day cure which I was sceptical of. I treated daily with this product for 9 days and everything looked clear. I lowered the heat but continued treating. I got new spots back again the next day.

I did a large water change. Cleaned the tank. Added new filters for turbulence and extra heaters. Gave it a day to settle and started bringing the heat up to 90F over a couple of days. I added 2tbs/5L salt and resumed treating with the imported medication.

This I continued for two whole weeks. Today I ran out of the new medication so I've switched back to the old one. I've still got visible spots, maybe some new in the last few days. ONLY on the black Ranchu and ONLY on the leading edge of his pectoral fins. Today I did a 15% water change and bumped the salt a bit. I'm not sure now if to treat one dose every 48hr as the instructions recommend and I did do or if to try it a bit different and dose half doses daily.

Basically from reading about the lifecycle I know visible spotting will mean I've got another 8-10 day wait for 'all clear'. This is why it is disturbing to see new spots forming. I figured the heat/medication would have cleared it all within two lifecycles tops.

Are you 100% sure on your Ich diagnosis? My fish are always getting similar white spots like this on their fins usually is because of scraping against something etc? Also as dawg has expressed keep the temp up and the salt then pick one medicine to treat stick to the treatment exactly to the directions. Too much meds can stress your fish. Also only do water changes according to the treatment recommendations. Stress is a cause of Ich doing too many water changes or large water changes can stress fish.

Meds will also stress the fish, what I am stressing here is to keep the stress as low as possible. Good luck, it looks like you are doing what you can but just be a little more patient with your treatments.

OH hey you might like my Sev. He is about 2yr and maybe 5"?

Nice Severum. Personally I would keep the heat up and the salt for at least 7 more days, no meds, not water changes. I would pick up a food with garlic like NLS flake thera-A. After the 7 days start a med treatment heat still up and 2-3 tsp of salt per G. Still no water changes. After treatment do a few small water changes over the next week. That is my 2 cents.

I wouldn't be 100% sure if I'd not seen the way it spreads and develops if I leave it without heat or treatment. I'm sure he has ALWAYS had a couple of white lumps on his fin edges but nothing like this because this appears, disappears and appears in other places, usually on the fins of the others.

I know about the stress, it seems unavoidable to some extent. I just wanted to stick the tank at 86F with some salt and leave it for 2-3 weeks, this has worked before?

The main point though. Is I've followed directions for two types of cure. One says just treat every 48hr + once more for luck followed by a water change after all signs have gone but mentions nothing about heat. I did two long courses of this with some heat to speed the lifecycle the first time and at a heat supposed to 'stop' ich the second!

The other said dose a double dose the first day, then a normal dose on days 2 and 3. In some stubborn cases you might have to dose on days 4 and 5. If it doesn't work by day 5 it says to contact a vet. I did a 9 day course of this and it still returned when I lowered the heat after seeing no spots for a few days. I didn't even do a water change as I intended to continue dosing right up to day 14 or so to be sure!

The second time with this medication I've heated to 90F and treated for two weeks. I'm still getting new spots appear occasionally but it certainly seems manageable even if I cannot totally clear it.

I'm sort of repeating myself but my point is I'm trying to be patient with it and follow directions but it keeps coming back. I'm not sure what else to try at this point. The reading I've done supports Ich not being always present in a tank and the need to totally eradicate it. It should have gone by now. The lifecycle as it is seems very worrying to be seeing new spots. IE as soon as I had the heat at 90F I should have had the spots drop off within 3 days, fail to multiply and fail to find a new host over maybe another 5 days tops. This means that excepting any that MIGHT have made it I shouldn't really see it after 5 days and certainly should expect it to be clear within 10-14.

I really don't know what to say besides keep your head up. Ich is one of the most common diseases in a home aquarium and also the easiest and most treatable. I am almost steering towards you have something else as saint said like a bacterial infection that may be weakening the fish just enough to be suseptible to ich.

Nice looking sev.

If it was me I would stick to the salt/heat treatment. I've only had ich in my tanks once and the only thing that got rid of it was salt/heat. The meds tend to stress the fish more than the salt does. Combining salt/heat and meds is super stressful for the fish and I wouldn't recommend it. Be patient and it will work for you. You can do water changes during the treatment but be sure to add salt to the water change water. I think 2.5 teaspoons per 5L is about where you should be and you could even go up to 3 teaspoons (1 tablespoon).

The only other thing is what MC mentioned...that it may not be ich. Sometimes it is tough to tell. Do you see your fish flashing at all? It is when the fish rub against rocks or structure due to discomfort from the ich. They would flash quite often if they have a bad case of ich IME. Good luck to you.

They do flash, but they don't have a bad case, I've got one fish showing a few white spots on the leading edge of his pectoral fins. I can't seem to eradicate it from there.

I'm tempted to just stop treating and see. But if I'm wrong and it spreads again then I've just made it slightly more resistant?

But yeah. On the salt. I am considering it. I just know it'll kill all the plants and give me water quality issues.

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/whitespot.php - tells me 5ppt is required to 'nearly always do it'. This is 19g/USgal 25g/5L. Or just over 3tsp per gal.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172935 - has a decent thread with references quoting (6ppt and under) were not significantly stressful for a 3 week study.

http://fl.biology.usgs.gov/posters/Nonindigenous/Salinity_Tolerance_of_Goldfish/salinity_tolerance_of_goldfish.html - Shows 100% survival for 40 days at 6ppm. 35 days at 10ppm but warns..

Although the goldfish is capable of survival at low (<10 ppt) salinities for an extended period of time, these conditions may be stressful to the fish. Published reports indicate that holding goldfish at low salinities causes changes in the distribution and density of mitochondria-rich ("chloride") cells, evokes increases in blood cortisol, increases oxygen consumption by 54 to 64%, increases urea-N excretion, and decreases specific growth rate and feed-conversion ratio. These sublethal effects may ultimately limit establishment of the species in brackish waters.

All this indicates a salt treatment of 5ppt safe for a couple of weeks as long as I follow an acclimatisation process and monitor the fish for oxygen starvation, especially considering the heat. Pretty much like the medication huh?

Don't stop treatment until the ich has been gone from the fish for at least a week.

Like I was saying, I cannot get rid of it on the pectoral fins for this black ranchu. It has been clear from everywhere else for ages. Every time its been clear its been gone except from here. I can't get him to lose it from his fins.

I'll try to take a photo but he is impossible to photograph, his wen covers his eyes so he is pretty much blind. Any movement leads him to think he is being fed and he goes into a frenzy.